Продолжение дискуссии, часть 5.
If I
understood Kees correctly, we need a plectrum to pluck at the same time 2 or 3
strings. And find the differents between its. That's the theory. The human ear
can discern and eliminate inaccuracies, if this sounds small delay
maxim_tuner_bodger
JohnSprung
Originally
Posted By: DoelKees
If they are
out of phase but at the same frequency there will be no beats.
True, but
out of phase at the same frequency causes cancellation and reduces the sound
output. Probably not important, though, since it's beats you're listening for.
The cause of beats is that a slight difference in frequencies makes them go
back and forth between adding and cancellation.
UnrightTooner
Originally
Posted By: DoelKees
Originally
Posted By: UnrightTooner
For both
strings to sound in phase (sound "beatless”) they also need to be struck at the
same time.
Why? If
they are out of phase but at the same frequency there will be no beats.
Kees
True, there
would be no beats IF you could get them to the exact same
frequency. But it is difficult to get that last 1/4 or ½ cent. When they are
struck at the same time and are in phase, then they couple even though
separately they are not quite at the same frequency. There is a
"tsiinnggg" sound at the attack that can be heard. And I have heard
some recordings where, I believe, the unisons were tuned to just barely couple.
It can make the melody really stand out.
This can be observed when a hammer is not well mated to the strings. It is much
harder, or impossible, to get a good unison and it will go out quicker. This
coupling is also why false beats can often be reduced or eliminated with
careful unison tuning. That is what I believe, anyway.
[Edit:] This may also be why unisons are not tuned with ETDs. I don't know how
a machine could recognise and guide the tuning of coupled strings.
rxd
Wasn't
there an article on this in Scientific American in '70's?
This is also the reason I check for noisy note termination(dampers) with the
shift pedal down. If they're gonna b noisy at all, that's when they're at their
most noticeable.
pianolive
"True, there would be no beats IF you could get them to the exact same
frequency"
But if strings have false beats, you often tune the three strings at different
freq. to get the chore beatless.
In older Steinway O grands the speaking lenghts of the last wounded strings at
the break, can differ quite much from 6 - 11 mm in one chore. If those strings are tuned
at the same freq. the do beat terrible. They must be tuned at different freq,
which we automatically do when tuning aurally. When checked with a program it
becomes clear that they are at different freq. but beatless together.
I guess it is the same in other instruments too.
DoelKees
Originally
Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally
Posted By: DoelKees
Originally
Posted By: UnrightTooner
For both
strings to sound in phase (sound "beatless”) they also need to be struck at the
same time.
Why? If
they are out of phase but at the same frequency there will be no beats.
Kees
True, there
would be no beats IF you could get them to the exact same
frequency. But it is difficult to get that last 1/4 or ½ cent. When they are
struck at the same time and are in phase, then they couple even though
separately they are not quite at the same frequency.
This could
also be used as an argument for tuning with a plectrum. If the strings are not
at the exact same frequency but you rely on the coupling to pull them in tune,
a small change in tension will take them out of the coupling range and you'll
have an off unison.
However if you tuned them more accurately to the same freq. by plucking them,
the unison would be even better with the hammer due to the string coupling, and
more stable (as you have more "wiggling room").
Finally when plucking, you can more easily excite the higher harmonics, leading
to higher accuracy. First because the nature of the plucking excitation causes
a more bright sound even when done at the same location as the hammer, second
because you can pluck closer to the termination to get the higher harmonics.
I would think the reasons not to pluck are 1) it is too time consuming and 2)
if the strings in the unison do not quite match you have to go for the
"best sound" which you can get only by listening to how it actually
sounds with the hammer.
Kees
UnrightTooner
Doel:
I always enjoy your objective outlook. Truly!
I have zero ETD experience. If they were appropriate for unison tuning, it
would either be recommended to do so or tuners would anyway.
And I am not so sure that higher harmonics lead to higher accuracy. The higher
the partial the more affected by iH. And if there is a slight difference in iH
the difference will be greater with higher partials.
Maximillyan
Originally
Posted By: DoelKees
Originally
Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally
Posted By: DoelKees
[quote=UnrightTooner]For
both strings to sound in phase (sound "beatless”) they also need to be struck
at the same time.
Why? If
they are out of phase but at the same frequency there will be no beats.Kees
Finally
when plucking, you can more easily excite the higher harmonics, leading to
higher accuracy. First because the nature of the plucking excitation causes a
more bright sound even when done at the same location as the hammer, second
because you can pluck closer to the termination to get the higher harmonics.
I would think the reasons not to pluck are 1) it is too time consuming and 2)
if the strings in the unison do not quite match you have to go for the
"best sound" which you can get only by listening to how it actually
sounds with the hammer.Kees
BRAVO,
Kees!
Maximillyan
Originally
Posted By: pianolive
the
speaking lenghts of the last wounded strings at the break, can differ quite
much from 6 - 11 mm
in one chore. If those strings are tuned at the same freq. the do beat
terrible. They must be tuned at different freq, which we automatically do when
tuning aurally.
think
that's debatable. I do not have such a practice
Maximillyan
Originally
Posted By: rxd
Wasn't
there an article on this in Scientific American in '70's?
that
article about?
rxd
Originally
Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally
Posted By: rxd
Wasn't
there an article on this in Scientific American in '70's?
that
article about?
About
coupling of strings and behaviour of 3rd string through the bridge when only 2
of 3 Strings Is struck, As in operating the shift(left) pedal in a grand.
I think I saw it copied on the web. Does anybody have a link?
UnrightTooner
I cannot
find the Scientific American article on the web, but here is a link that
mentions it in regards to the coupling of strings:
http://flux.aps.org/meetings/YR97/BAPSTSS97/abs/S1010002.html
Maximillyan
Thank,Jeff Deutschle
UnrightTooner
Ugh,
Now I remember how this subject is treated in an ugly way:
http://www.speech.kth.se/music/5_lectures/weinreic/weinreic.html
Maximillyan
Dear
piano's technicks, I today rescued a piano "Belarus" 1959. This is a piano
never no one ever tuning up. Maxim worked during the day . Originally a piano
played terrible! I think that the tuning took place. I look forward to your
constructive criticism tuning piano with plectrum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzL2yAOOAuQ
DoelKees
Originally
Posted By: UnrightTooner
I have zero
ETD experience. If they were appropriate for unison tuning, it would either be
recommended to do so or tuners would anyway.
OK, but we
discuss plucking here, not ETD's. I agree with you, it's just a matter of
knowing why.
Originally
Posted By: UnrightTooner
And I am
not so sure that higher harmonics lead to higher accuracy. The higher the
partial the more affected by iH. And if there is a slight difference in iH the
difference will be greater with higher partials.
True.
Kees
DoelKees
I tried
tuning a couple of unisons today with the plucking method. Once I get the fast
beats out by plucking close to the termination (i.e., the higher harmonics
rapid beats are now too slow to detect), the unison is perfect when played with
hammer. When tuning the same unison with the hammer, after getting it aurally
equally perfect I could then detect a small beat in the higher harmonics when
plucking. When correcting this using plucking and going back to using the
hammer it sounded the same. But I think it should theoretically then be more
stable.
I cherry picked the unisons for well matched strings. When I tried on a unison
with some problems, the resulting unison from plucking depended on where I'd
pluck and never sounded as good as when I tuned with the hammer (the piano
hammer, not the tuning hammer), for obvious reasons.
I think this is all as expected, and I'm happy now that I understand what's
going on.
It seems with this plucking technique you should be prepared to spend 6 hours
on a tuning, as it will not work on less than perfectly matched strings, so you
have to go through the plucking stage, then strike with the hammers, decide which
strings have a problem etc.
A somewhat related factoid: I play a lot with santur players. A santur (also
called dulcimer) is like a piano without action lying on the table and you hit
the strings (3 per unison) with mallets you hold in your hand. Every santur
player I know tunes by plucking the strings. It need to be (and is by the pro's)
tuned about every 15 mins.
Kees
rxd
Originally
Posted By: Maximillyan
Dear
piano's technicks, I today rescued a piano "Belarus" 1959. This is a piano
never no one ever tuning up. Maxim worked during the day . Originally a piano
played terrible! I think that the tuning took place. I look forward to your
constructive criticism tuning piano with plectrum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzL2yAOOAuQ
Thank you,
Max for this video. It shows how well that you are adding our suggestions to
your own technique. It looks as though that piano has pins just a little too
tight to turn with one hand. You have stopped flagpoling the pin and your
unisons are much cleaner.
I noticed you turn the pin some times with the tool in L shape (not T) with no
flagpoling that as a good skill to have and will enable you to turn the pin and
tune finer without changing tools or using both hands. This is just a
suggestion that may help you todevelop a more efficient technique with the
tools you have.
I am impressed by how you can estimate quite accurately how much to turn the
pin with both hands and no notes sounding. With this skill, it is possible for
you to get the string close to in tune and then refine the tuning with one hand
while playing the note from the key with the other.
You can stop the strings that you don't need to hear with wedges made from soft
material like felt or rubber so that you only have two strings sounding at one
time. You saw this in the Japanese video.
You will find this quicker because plucking the strings takes more time and
would take 3 hands to do efficiently. That is the reason I don't take time to
pluck strings.
There is a discussion in this thread that points out some of the possible
advantages of plucking. I will certainly try it next time I tune a piano and
have time.
Thank you for making us all think about what we are doing.
Is that your family in the background? They look very happy.
UnrightTooner
Max:
You will get many different perspectives from us. Mine is just one of many.
I do not see the flagpoling by itself being a problem to tuning. I see the
EFFECTS of flagpoling on the PITCH, while the flagpoling is occurring, as the
problem. There are problems with flagpoling that are separate from tuning,
though.
If you were tuning in the typical way, the pitch change due to flagpoling would
be a problem. The typical way is to play the note and tune one untuned string
to other tuned strings. (Mutes are needed to do this.) While the note is being
played, the pin is turned until the interval between the notes is correct. (The
interval may be a unison, octave, fifth, etc.)
If there is a large amount of flagpoling in the direction of the string, then
when the tuning hammer is no longer being turned, the pitch will change. The
usual way to deal with flagpoling is to put the tuning hammer in line with the
string. Then the flagpoling will not affect the pitch because the flagpoling is
in the direction of across the string, not in line with the string.
Since you are plucking a string, turning the pin, and then checking the result,
I do not see the flagpoling as a problem in tuning. The effect of flagpoling on
the change of pitch no longer exists when the note is checked. The real problem
is tuning mostly by listening to pitch, rather than by listening to intervals.
Listening to intervals is the typical way to tune.
However, there is problem with flagpoling that has nothing to do with tuning.
Flagpoling puts sideways pressure on the hole in the pinblock. It is good that
you are now using a technique that reduces this flagpoling. A typical tuning
hammer reduces flagpoling by having the head of the hammer closer to the pin.
Maybe you can modify one of your tools to work more like a typical tuning
hammer. Then you could try tuning intervals rather than by mostly listening to
separate pitches. You will need mutes to do this. A wedge of rubber would be
like a typical mute.
Maximillyan
Originally
Posted By: DoelKees
When tuning
the same unison with the hammer, after getting it aurally equally perfect I
could then detect a small beat in the higher harmonics when plucking. When
correcting this using plucking and going back to using the hammer it sounded
the same. But I think it should theoretically then be more stable. I think this
is all as expected, and I'm happy now that I understand what's going on.
Dear Kees,
you really understand correctly that the harmonic sounds are different from
each other. This is not just a theory, but practice. I first create a sound
pick, and then check the usual playback using the keyboard. So that I created
the sound in practice no different from the sound which was created by mute
way. I am glad to know that you are actively practicing the method of plucking.
There is one huge disadvantage - a lot of time spent on tuning sound and it
analysis. However, this is offset by careful attitude to the mechanisms; (pin-
pin’s hole- pinblock). Stability and durability of this method is undeniable
Respect you from maxim_tuner_bodger
Maximillyan
Originally
Posted By: UnrightTooner
Since you
are plucking a string, turning the pin, and then checking the result, I do not
see the flagpoling as a problem in tuning. The effect of flagpoling on the
change of pitch no longer exists when the note is checked. The real problem is
tuning mostly by listening to pitch, rather than by listening to intervals.
Listening to intervals is the typical way to tune.
Maybe you can modify one of your tools to work more like a typical tuning
hammer. Then you could try tuning intervals rather than by mostly listening to
separate pitches. You will need mutes to do this. A wedge of rubber would be
like a typical mute.
Dear Jeff,
the entire analysis of my way tuning and most importantly all your
recommendations are correct and I think that they will help me in my job. I
understood you and I be sure to make SUCH hammer!
Regards maxim_tuner_bodger
Maximillyan
Originally
Posted By: rxd
Originally
Posted By: Maximillyan
Dear
piano's technicks, I today rescued a piano "Belarus" 1959. This is a piano
never no one ever tuning up. Maxim worked during the day . Originally a piano
played terrible! I think that the tuning took place. I look forward to your
constructive criticism tuning piano with plectrum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzL2yAOOAuQ
Thank you,
Max for this video. It shows how well that you are adding our suggestions to
your own technique. It looks as though that piano has pins just a little too
tight to turn with one hand. You have stopped flagpoling the pin and your unisons
are much cleaner.
THANKS
I noticed you turn the pin some times with the tool in L shape (not T) with no
flagpoling that as a good skill to have and will enable you to turn the pin and
tune finer without changing tools or using both hands. This is just a
suggestion that may help you todevelop a more efficient technique with the
tools you have.
I am impressed by how you can estimate quite accurately how much to turn the
pin with both hands and no notes sounding. With this skill, it is possible for
you to get the string close to in tune and then refine the tuning with one hand
while playing the note from the key with the other.
You can stop the strings that you don't need to hear with wedges made from soft
material like felt or rubber so that you only have two strings sounding at one
time. You saw this in the Japanese video.
You will find this quicker because plucking the strings takes more time and
would take 3 hands to do efficiently. That is the reason I don't take time to
pluck strings.
There is a discussion in this thread that points out some of the possible
advantages of plucking. I will certainly try it next time I tune a piano and
have time.
Thank you for making us all think about what we are doing.
Is that your family in the background? They look very happy.
The technique of L and T, I intentionally included to show the versatility of
my key. I'm can work both left and right hand the same way, for me it makes no
difference.
My extensive experience allows me to turning the pin originally without sound.
When I find sharp tone and I am fix it's.
Your wishes with wedges (Japanese video) are taken into account.
If you look closely, in my various video: here different people, women and
children. I am not a polygamist, it's my customers. They are happy that I came.
Their desire is to get as a result of my visit, well-tuned up piano
sincerely yours maxim_tuner_bodger
rxd
I can see
how string tunes differently by plucking. Whenever I completely revoice a piano
it seems to want to tune slightly differently than before any changes.
I never do retune, not for any artistic reasons but because the changes are so
slight as to not warrant it. Or am I merely justifying my laziness? I also have
a taste for benign neglect.
Anyway, when we get to fine tuning it might by an issue and it might not.
I'm about to listen to some Beethoven, Schumann & Liszt on a 1914 Chapell
9' grand that I just tuned with a T hammer. The pianists love it. It had been
sounding a little 'quaint' here and there at higher dynamic levels, depending
on who was playing it. Some back of the hammer needling has taken all that away
and it is an amazing piano now.
Maximillyan
Originally
Posted By: rxd
I'm about
to listen to some Beethoven, Schumann & Liszt on a 1914 Chapell 9' grand
that I just tuned with a T hammer. The pianists love it. It had been sounding a
little 'quaint' here and there at higher dynamic levels, depending on who was
playing it. Some back of the hammer needling has taken all that away and it is
an amazing piano now.
Dear rxd, I
am Very pleased! I'd love to hear and see a little piece of video. Discussion
pianists about this a piano and tuning now, if possible.
sincerely yours,maxim_tuner_bodger
pianolive
Please
correct me if I misunderstand, but are you guys talking about tuning pianos by
plucking the strings?
First set temp and then tune the rest of the instrument by plucking?
rxd
Originally
Posted By: pianolive
Please
correct me if I misunderstand, but are you guys talking about tuning pianos by
plucking the strings?
First set temp and then tune the rest of the instrument by plucking?
Yes, but go
back to the beginning of this thread to see how it morphed that way.
Dan
Casdorph
Maximillyan:
How long does it take you to tune a piano?
Dan
Maximillyan
Originally
Posted By: Dan Casdorph
How long
does it take you to tune a piano
Dan,If the piano is in good technical condition ( tight pin- pin's hole-
pinblock ) then I shall tuning more than 5 hours, new 7-9 h
BDB
I schedule
between one and two hours for most tunings.
Monaco
I'm a
beginner and it takes me less than 2 hours to tune, plus a little for the set
up, adjustments, inspection etc.
Maximillyan
Originally
Posted By: Monaco
I'm a
beginner and it takes me less than 2 hours to tune,
"No
bad cats. There are cooks who do not know how cook it's". Chinese folk
wisdom
DoelKees
Originally
Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally
Posted By: Dan Casdorph
How long
does it take you to tune a piano
Dan,If the
piano is in good technical condition ( tight pin- pin's hole- pinblock ) then I
shall tuning more than 5 hours, new 7-9 h
It took me
about 4 mins to tune a single 3 string unison with the plucking method. Times
88 that's about the time you mention, taking into accounts not all notes have 3
strings but you also have to set a temperament.
Using either a muting strip or rubber dampers you can cut this time down to 1-2
hrs.
How do you set the temperament (make sure all intervals are equal)?
Kees
Mark R.
Kees,
You can see in the videos that Max's "temperament" (if one can call
it that?!) is based on 4ths, 5ths and octaves, using major triads as auxiliary
notes (marked in red below).
e.g.
A4 --> E4 (playing C#4,E4,A4)
A4 --> D5 (playing F#4,A4,D5)
D5 --> D4 (octave, or playing D major)
D4 --> G4 (playing B3,D4,G4)
etc. etc.
My problem in calling this a "temperament" is that these auxiliary
notes are not even tuned yet! Given this, I'm surprised at some of the results
he does get.
Monaco,
Not that I'm keen on "fast and furious", but do you perhaps have a
recording of one of your tunings that you did in less than two hours? I'm a
beginner too, and although I might manage a pitch raise in less than two hours,
a fine tuning definitely takes me longer.
Dan
Casdorph
The reason
I asked about time is because there was once a beginning tuner here who I saw
doing a floor tuning in a store. I stood back and watched/listened for a few
minutes and I found his methods curious.
He played the key and used mutes to tune using a traditional tuning lever.
However, he did not play while he was tuning the string.He tuned silently. He
would work his tuning lever, then play the note and listen. If the note/unison
was off, he would either raise or lower the string silently, then play the
note. He would then decide whether to raise or lower the pitch depending on
whether the beats were getting better or worse.
I watched for about 10 minutes in total confusion as he struggled to tune a couple
of unisons in the treble.
He never was able to get his tuning time under 4-5 hours and he quit tuning.
Maximillyan
Originally
Posted By: Mark R.
Kees,
You can see in the videos that Max's "temperament" (if one can call
it that?!) is based on 4ths, 5ths and octaves, using major triads as auxiliary
notes (marked in red below).
e.g.
A4 --> E4 (playing C#4,E4,A4)
A4 --> D5 (playing F#4,A4,D5)
D5 --> D4 (octave, or playing D major)
D4 --> G4 (playing B3,D4,G4)
Dear Mark I
did not set to show in your videos are absolutely accurate (final) fixation of
sounds. Customers shoot me in the process of temperament. With regard to major
triads you just said. This is just search sound one of my original methods .
Now I shall looking for a broken piano to the online mode to configure it for
an extended period of time
Maximillyan
Originally
Posted By: DoelKees
Originally
Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally
Posted By: Dan Casdorph
How long
does it take you to tune a piano
Dan,If the
piano is in good technical condition ( tight pin- pin's hole- pinblock ) then I
shall tuning more than 5 hours, new 7-9 h
you can cut
this time down to 1-2 hrs.How do you set the temperament (make sure all
intervals are equal)?Kees
Thanks
Kees,but I think the rush is not necessary, to avoid errors and the quality was
not affected
BDB
It is not
necessarily the case that taking more time results in better tuning. Usually
those who take longer get the worst results.
For concerts, I often have only one hour to tune the piano. That includes
replacing strings I might break. If I run over, the audience has to wait until
I finish. Most of the time, the piano is fairly well in tune beforehand, but I
never can tell how the weather has affected the piano until I start tuning.
dancarney
I can
'chip' a piano in around 50/55 mins, which can then be fine tuned in around 30
mins, give or take.
It takes practise, however. I hope I can improve on the above time, just for
kicks.
Kees, you'll be able to improve your time quite easily by practising.
I don't intend to craft a career from chipping, but it is a fairly efficient
way of raising/levelling pitch.
rxd
Originally Posted By: BDB
For
concerts, I often have only one hour to tune the piano. That includes replacing
strings I might break.
One hour is
quite standard for a concert tuning.
How old are these concert pianos that are breaking strings?
Or are you an unusually heavy handed tuner?
Monaco
Mark,
Do you use an ETD?
BDB
The newest
piano is 5 years old. I am not the only one who breaks strings on it. That is
about par for heavily used concert pianos.
Maximillyan
Originally
Posted By: rxd
Originally
Posted By: BDB
For
concerts, I often have only one hour to tune the piano. That includes replacing
strings I might break.
an
unusually heavy handed tuner?
I am HARD
tuner
Monaco
Does tuning
with a plectrum provide enough inertia to the string to allow it to equalize
over it's pressure points? I doubt it. Unless you pluck the HECK out of it,
then maybe.
What makes one a heavy handed tuner? The strength of his blows or the amount
that one raises pitch above the desired frequency? Is it at all likely that you
could brake a string by smacking the key? My initial thought is that if there
is such a thing as a heavy handed tuner it must be the latter.
Maximillyan
Originally
Posted By: Monaco
if there is
such a thing as a heavy handed tuner it must be the latter.
Hard
fixation of pin as soon as possible, without re-return. But in practice I can
not boast that it is happening at once and not have to go back to adjust the
sound
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