Продолжение дискуссии, часть 3.

excise and Max may have to go collect them and pay duties.
Best contact the Kazakhstan Embassy first to check on the best way of circumventing this distinct possibility.
The same thing happens here in UK and I know it does in USA.
Best to check and ask them the best way before sending anything that could get misappropriated.

 pianolive

Rxd,
Thanks.
Yes, I am aware of this and did send a mail to the embassy yesterday. Will call tomorrow.
There are some transport companies which can deliver directly to Max as he seems to live in the western part of the country.

rxd

This thread has developed a life of its' own outside pianoworld.
One poster who left this particular thread in disgust is now claiming (on another forum) the moral high ground for attempting to marginalise Max and deprive him of his livelihood. All this under the guise of purifying our profession. (Well, he calls it a trade).
Hasn't history has proven this kind of thinking devastatingly wrong?.

Phil D

And shamefully, it's a British tuner on a UK forum. "Savages, I tell you" said in the best colonial accent. "Need to be stopped, what?"

rxd

Send in a gunboat and a platoon of cavalry!.
Frank!... The British are doing that self depracating humor thing again.... Make 'em stop!

UnrightTooner

Originally Posted By: Phil D

And shamefully, it's a British tuner on a UK forum. "Savages, I tell you" said in the best colonial accent. "Need to be stopped, what?"
But how would he actually do it? The devil is in the details.

Withindale

Gentlemen
Hasn't this issue, "Encourage or not?", now been as fully debated on both sides on the pond as it should have been?
In the end actions speak louder than words.

rxd

Originally Posted By: Withindale

Gentlemen
Hasn't this issue, "Encourage or not?", now been as fully debated on both sides on the pond as it should have been?
In the end actions speak louder than words.

No!!!!, One of the central issues is only just coming to light.
I am currently acting on the situation, so are a few more of us, are you???.
Jeff,
Thats the next question. Who's got the answer and who exactly is this chap that is in the details.
Where are we going and what am I doing in this handbasket?
Another issue that was thrown up (in) was the T hammer thing. I had some lunchtime concerts to tune for last Friday morning and have tuned almost eveything since with a T hammer.... Some 10 year old Kawai RX's (A brand new Shigaru and the new Steinway 9's needed a lever), but the 30 yr old Steinways responded well to the T. By far the best was a 35 yr. old Bosendorfer that I tuned last week for an all Liszt program. A string broke During the concert but the rest of the piano stayed in tune.
I fixt the string and left everything for the week full of many rehearsals and Heavy Jazz things. I tuned again last Friday morning and, with a T hammer was nitpicking the slight noises in the unisons. The T hammer helped me feel the exact set of the pin that I didn't feel with the lever the week before ( I tend towards the self critical). Hopefully It will stay even better this week. The Bosendorfer responded as though it was designed for that tool. Wouldn't use it on a new one, though.
I asked my favorite piano historian about the introduction of the lever for tuning. In Europe, at least, he reckons the move to plate bushings and tighter pinblocks that really took hold some time after WW1. A relatively new interloper, it seems. That's not to say it didn't exist in factories before then. A colleague here tells me that he was not allowed to use a lever until the second year of training and he's a young fella 'bout my age. I don't know about anywhere else.

Withindale

rxd:
Well, OK then. [btw I hadn't seen Jeff's post]
What central issue do you have in mind? It's not clear, to me at least.
A glib answer to Jeff's question is to civilise the savages. If one should do that at all, should one start in the UK or Kazakhstan?
Your offer of a tuning lever was perfect.

UnrightTooner

RXD:
It is easy to say that so-and-so should not be in the so-and-so business. But the ugliness of this statement, devilishly, comes out when you try different scenarios to make it happen. The best alternative is to simply state "Let the buyer beware."
If someone disagrees, let's hear a workable, angelic scenario.
As far as the T-handle, I have never used one, but can see the advantages in control. My forearms aren't quite what they were in my Popeye days (24 yrs at sea, much of it on deck), but I often plant my elbow and just use my fingers and wrist to move the hammer. I will have to see what mood I am in next time I place an order.

daniokeeper

So...

rxd

Jeff. Yep. Exactly. Even all our best legal minds can't get past ' buyer beware'.
Let me know how you get on with Mr. T. It's surprisingly easy on a suitable piano.
Withindale, That's what makes it central. It keeps on raising another question.
Other central issues are, how easy it is to demonise someone, how we define ourselves by what we're not, evading the question of who we are, the self esteem issues embedded in the need to put another person down in order to (as we think) make oneself look good. The ' guilt by association' of someone who springs to the defence of the one being demonized.
The list goes on.

Phil D

Ahh... a philosopher

UnrightTooner

RXD:
You make piano tuning sound simplistic in comparison.

Silverwood Pianos

Originally Posted By: rxd

I have discvered that it would cost £1800 (GBP) to send Max to Moscow with a 3* hotel for a week for intensive training. There are most likely other alternatives. Does anyone know someplace in Moscow That would be qualified to give this training?

I have here a second hand copy of the Randy Potter Course. While this is not the intensive training that Max would receive in Moscow, I can ship this as a gift to him. That will get him started. I can even blank out the original answers on the exams so he can take them on his own and have then marked here perhaps…..
Can also throw in a few books;Reblitz and a few others.
Originally Posted By: rxd
Read further back in the thread. Max did send me his address and I will mail him a tuning lever plus some other things. Pre-paying excise duty.
Rxd can you pm me the address for this person. I can ship prepaid.

Withindale

rxd, from my brief layman's experience in these forums I'd agree that "buyer beware of ..." and more positively "buyer be aware of ..." are two issues worthy of everyone's attention: tuners and technicians; profession and trade; demonisers and demons; marketeers and lawyers; pianists and teachers.

rxd

Rxd can you pm me the address for this person. I can ship prepaid.
[/quote]
Read further back in this thread. where this is covered.
Kz customs and excise can make it that Max might have to travel to pick things up and there may be duties for him to pay.
U
Contact your local Kz embassy or consulate for ways of avoiding this or prepaying duties.
I consider it more appropriate that Max himself gives you his address, don't you? He might also give you further info on this.

pianolive

I have a parcel send for Max and it will be delivered to his home address.
There is a extension lever with 3 tips of different lenght.
Mutes and some small tools. A cembalolever too.
I just tell this so we dont drown the man in tuning hammers

rxd

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

RXD:
You make piano tuning sound simplistic in comparison.

That's right. You draw a valid comparison.
Coaxing something out of its' complacency in order to adopt a new attitude while at the same time reconciling the ensuing conflicting forces is something that a piano will readily hold still for.
Not so for the human mind.
Frank!!... They're doing it again... Make 'em stop.

Silverwood Pianos

I can’t find anything in the thread with regard to his address. Must be somewhere but out of time now, I will find another way.

rxd

Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

I can’t find anything in the thread with regard to his address. Must be somewhere but out of time now, I will find another way.

Dan. Read my post again. I'm sure Max will give you his address just as I would be the appropriate person to ask for my address.
If I gave you my address, I would not expect it to be passed around without my permission for any reason. I am simply extending the same courtesy to Max.
Far quicker and more polite to ask him yourself.

Phil D

Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

I have here a second hand copy of the Randy Potter Course. While this is not the intensive training that Max would receive in Moscow, I can ship this as a gift to him. That will get him started. I can even blank out the original answers on the exams so he can take them on his own and have then marked here perhaps…..
Can also throw in a few books;Reblitz and a few others.

Don't forget that Max doesn't read nor speak English!

rxd

Phil, it seems he does have some sort of computerized translator.

Phil D
True, and I'm not trying to smother any fires here, its just that I don't think his translator, which I think is just Google Translate, is going to be up for the job of translating the technical language into anything meaningful for him, even if he did go to the effort of copying the text from the book onto a computer. Bearing in mind that he will have a cyrillic keyboard, and so the letters will have to be input some other way.
We forget how huge language barriers are, and in this case, it is a massive barrier. I've looked in vain to see if Reblitz has been translated into Russian, which I think Max can read.
I wonder if there are any books on piano servicing available in Russian. I'm not sure even how to approach finding out!

rxd

Yes there are. I saw copies in the stacks at the Library of Congress. Wash. D. C. No use to Max there but proof of their existence.
There is also a music conservatory at the other end of Kz. 3,600 miles away and they have a website. Max is not entirely without 'local' resources particularly since he has Email and Internet.

Mark R.

I am fluent in German, English and Afrikaans, can converse in broken Dutch, and understand little smatterings of French and Zulu. And I can state confidently that most human translators, and more to the point, all electronic translators such as Google Translate, fail miserably when it comes to technical texts, such as Reblitz's textbook.
I had to ask German piano technicians for the correct terms in order to be able to understand their texts and converse with them. There was literally no other way.
What you call a wippen, they call a "lifting member".
What you call a rail, they call a "beam".
What you call a jack, they call a "jill" (only joking, they call it a "push-tongue").
What you call a let-off button, they call a "let-off doll".
What you call a butt and a knuckle, they call a "nut" and a "roll".
Your pinblock or wrestplank is their "tuning stock".
Your keybed is their "chair bottom" or "chair board".
Your V-bar is their "Silie" (zee-lee-eh).
And so it goes on...
[Edit: perhaps nicest of all, your catcher is their "back catcher", while your backcheck is their "catcher". Go figure...]
Sorry to say, but while I think all donors' efforts are laudible, I'm afraid that the Reblitz book (and possibly even the Randy Potter course) will do Max very little good.

rxd

I agree, Mark. We Even sometimes have confusion between American terminology and British terminology.
I amaze myself how much I understand of Max's overly 'literal' translations. They vary enormously in their comprehensibility, have you noticed? perhaps he occasionally has an English speaking friend help him. My mental thesaurus works overtime even on my 4th or 5th reading of some sentences.
I avidly devoured even foreign language books when I was a student with only one year of some languages. Only Cyrillics and hieroglyphics could stop me.
Don't forget, a picture speaks a thousand words.
Max is resourceful. Don't underestimate him. I can't help wondering if he has exhausted the resources that I know are available in his own language. Most of us know that a maverick can operate even where information and guidance is readily available.
I have friends and friends of freinds who are Kz. nationals researching the availability of help in his own country.

UnrightTooner

Originally Posted By: rxd

Max is resourceful. Don't underestimate him. I can't help wondering if he has exhausted the resources that I know are available in his own language. Most of us know that a maverick can operate even where information and guidance is readily available.
Yes, he is also "a big fish in a little pond.” An expert in his own eyes, but a tinkerer in others (including mine). His YouTube videos are designed to instruct, not to seek guidance.
There is a saying I like: "Who taught the first chicken to peck?” Max taught himself. He was not spoon fed. So I see enormous potential. We can offer what resources we might have and then it is up to Max to use them the best he can.

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

Originally Posted By: rxd

Max is resourceful. Don't underestimate him. I can't help wondering if he has exhausted the resources that I know are available in his own language. Most of us know that a maverick can operate even where information and guidance is readily available.
There is a saying I like: "Who taught the first chicken to peck?” Max taught himself. He was not spoon fed.

Dear tech. of piano, I happy for the activity to the discussions. Critical and fair assessment of forced me to work and learn from mistakes. I get a lot of useful information and I thank you for your research about T-hammer. For me the surprise controversy on this subject not only to our forum, but English http://www.piano-tuners.org/piano-forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9479
This is a great honor for me. I publish their own T-hammers and the scheme drawing (mm). You may need to make a order repair T-hammer. If you have non-standard pin, need to forge this pin (hot press, smithy) I am attaching a chart-drawing and photo T-hammers http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/maxim-tuner/album/170673
Its video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkKwpV_3HXI
Maybe someone will need it. Yours Maximillyan

JohnSprung

Originally Posted By: rxd

I have friends and friends of freinds who are Kz. nationals researching the availability of help in his own country.

NASA would be another place to look for contacts. Baikonur in South-Central Kz. is the world's only remaining manned space launch site.

rxd

Originally Posted By: JohnSprung

Originally Posted By: rxd

I have friends and friends of freinds who are Kz. nationals researching the availability of help in his own country.

NASA would be another place to look for contacts. Baikonur in South-Central Kz. is the world's only remaining manned space launch site.

since I'm in the UK, is that something you could do?

DoelKees

Originally Posted By: rxd

Max is resourceful. Don't underestimate him. I can't help wondering if he has exhausted the resources that I know are available in his own language.

Would it be possible for the PTG to fund him to attend one of these major yearly conferences? I'm not sure if this is something that PTG does but, speaking as an Associate Member, I would be pleased if it did.
Kees

DoelKees

rXd:
I think you're overreacting a bit, not that I appreciate the sentiment (and I pledge my $50 for Max).
You sound a bit like Max has some terminal disease and we should rally to save him.
Also this fellow Johnkie with 45 years experience as a concert tuner certainly comes over as a pompous ass, but his only point was really that he objected to Max posting instructional video's teaching people the wrong thing. At least wrong outside his area.
And anyone on youtube can watch his video's (if they speak Russian) and think: hey this is a great free online course to become a piano technician. Machine oil, cardboard, using a plectrum instead of mutes, etc...
Hope you get my drift.
That being said, let me repeat that I appreciate the sentiment (and I pledge my $50 for Max).
Cheers,
Kees

UnrightTooner

Doel:
My $50 pledge holds also, but I am now wondering the best way to apply it. There have been at least 3 offers for shipments of second hand tools and supplies. It might get the best "bang for the buck" to forward the $50 to one of the donors to help cover shipping costs rather than an account for Max. Let's ask Max.
Hey Max:
Which would you prefer?
1.) I (and others?) try to start an account for you to purchase tools and supplies from pianosupplies.com.
2.) Help reimburse shipping costs for tools and supplies sent to you by donors?

UnrightTooner

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

Dear tech. of piano, I happy for the activity to the discussions. Critical and fair assessment of forced me to work and learn from mistakes. I get a lot of useful information and I thank you for your research about T-hammer.
Max:
Can you give some examples of what you have learned from this Forum?

rxd

Originally Posted By: DoelKees

rXd:
I think you're overreacting a bit, not that I appreciate the sentiment (and I pledge my $50 for Max).
You sound a bit like Max has some terminal disease and we should rally to save him.
Also this fellow Johnkie with 45 years experience as a concert tuner certainly comes over as a pompous ass,,,,
Kees

Yes, I probably did get overprotective in my attempt to kick against those whom you call a pompous ass. I tried to do it in the least judgemental way and certainly not resort to name calling. I'm the last person to think there's anything diseased and certainly not terminal. That's the position of the other side.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to do a bit of name calling for myself in an indirect way, and not be totally responsible for it.

DoelKees

rxd:
For the record, I did not indulge in name calling.
I just mentioned Johnkie "came across" as a pompous ass, not that he is one. In fact most British sound like pompous asses to me because of their funny accent. I am sure they are not.
Kees

rxd

Record amended.

Supply

Let's all stay a little bit closer to reality here, folks.
Originally Posted By: JohnSprung
NASA would be another place to look for contacts. Baikonur in South-Central Kz. is the world's only remaining manned space launch site.
NASA???? Well, now that the space shuttle era has ended, maybe they are looking for other worthwhile projects....
Quote:Would it be possible for the PTG to fund him to attend one of these major yearly conferences? I'm not sure if this is something that PTG does...
Hardly. The PTG does not even cover travel expenses of world class technicians who come to the annual conventions to give seminars.
With all due respect, understanding and empathy and everything else: is trying to tune by strumming a piano's strings really worth a thread of over a hundred posts?

Silverwood Pianos

Originally Posted By: Supply

Let's all stay a little bit closer to reality here, folks.

Ok lets do that then.
Not trying to be too objective but a couple of things I have observed;
One is how Max has enough funds to have a computer, an internet provider, and be on the internet.
And the other is the video camera to upload all of those videos to Youtube.
Certainly with funding for those things he could find funding for shipping costs perhaps?

rxd

I have an impecunious friend who has access to my computer equipment. Quite a common situation inthe world.
There are many things we don't know that I'm trying to find out.

JohnSprung

Yes, with the shuttle gone, NASA is using Baikonur for access to the international space station. Everybody is, it's the only manned launch facility. So, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they have a regular pouch. Sure, it's a long shot, but it would be fun if it paid off. If anybody here knows anybody at NASA, it wouldn't hurt to ask.

Thrill Science

Максим:
Я уверен, что никто из людей здесь настроили вертикальную фортепиано как ваш "Беларусь".
В этом случае, они могут иметь больше симпатии к вам!

DoelKees
Wise words from Jurgen and Dan.
Back on topic I once experimented with tuning with a plectrum. Put a brick on the sustain pedal, pluck the string and tune with an ETD. (Plucking an interval seems to requires a third hand for your hammer.) Unisons by ear.
The idea was to eliminate time spent on muting strings.
It didn't work because I spent more time waiting for the string to quiet down than I would spend on muting. Maybe if I wore felt gloves I could shut them up when not needed.
Kees

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: DoelKees

Wise words from Jurgen and Dan.
Back on topic I once experimented with tuning with a plectrum.Kees

Уважаемый DoelKees . Очень рад Вашим экспериментам и думаю, что отчётливо вижу как вы это делали. Однако как было сказано мною ранее, мой «варварский способ» родился потому, что я не знал, как надо настраивать. Не знал, как это работает. Вы правильно отметили, что для рояля это очень трудно. Однако для пианино, позволю Вам заметить, я считаю, очень даже приемлемо. Как я это делаю :
1. Я нажимаю клавишу «ля1»-440 пальцем левой руки и слушаю звук, нахожу несоответствие в хорах
2. Я далее держу эту клавишу, когда струны уже затихли. Демпфер сейчас открыт.
3. Я начинаю щипать медиатором (правая рука) все струны, выявляю несоответствия между струнами
4. Насаживаю ключ на нужный колок. Я работаю ключом одинаково правой и левой рукой.
5. Правой работаю ключом, левой держу клавишу, медиатор держу то в правой, то в левой.
6. Когда я настраиваю «ре2», то слушаю одновременно и звуки щипка «ля1». То есть сначала правильные интервалы, а затем и щипковые аккорды, подобно гусляру.
7. Я не нажимаю педаль
Вы правы, когда пишите о третьей руке. Однако Господь распорядился иначе. Я считаю, что в моём методе двух достаточно.
С уважением, Максим.
Dear DoelKees. I am very glad your experiment and I think that I clearly see how you did it. However, as mentioned by me earlier, my "barbaric way," was born because I did not know how to adjust. I did not know how it works. You correctly noted that a piano is very difficult. However, for up right piano, will let you see, I think, very much acceptable. How do I do it:
1. I press the key "A1" -440 finger of my left hand and listen to the sound, I find a discrepancy in the choir
2. I continue to hold down it key when the string is silenced. The damper is now open.
3. I'm starting to pinch the mediator (right hand) all the strings, reveal inconsistencies between the strings
4. I insert T-hammer (my right hand) in one pin. I can work for the same T-hammer right or left hand.
5. Right-working T-hammer, hold the left key, hold the pick in the right, then left.
6. When I set "D2"made, then listen to the sounds together and tweak 'la1. " That is, first the correct intervals, and then plucked chords like guslar.
7. I do not use the pedal
You are right when they write about the third hand. However, the Lord made us otherwise. I think in my

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