Технология настройки при помощи медиатора заключается в том, что поочерёдно, щипком (медиатором) извлекается настраиваемый звук, и сличается с уже настроенным (или с 2-мя в хорах). Это принципиально отличается от современных методов темперации фортепиано, когда настраивается один звук, два других при этом заглушены специальными резиновыми приспособлениями. При этом слышится только один звук и при настройке приходится иногда возвращаться и производить подстройку.

Подобный метод очень эффективен для хоров, так как позволяет более точно находить настраиваемый звук и не делать излишних движений ключом, сберегая ресурс посадочного места колка фортепиано. Одним из преимуществ данного метода является то, что в процессе темперации настройщик имеет возможность использовать гармонический слух. К основному настраиваемому звуку настройщик способен «выщипыванием» добавлять неограниченный спектр звучащих одновременно звуков, то есть может слышать интервально и аккордово.

Медиатор насажен на бечёвку, чтобы во время процесса случайно не уронить его между клавиш.                                         

В статье приводится обсуждение преимуществ и недостатков данной методики на международном форуме настройщиков-музыкальных техников.

Maximillyan
Loc: KZ

Tuning a piano with mediator
I use when tuning of piano with mediator. Such way allows to search for the sounds of the necessary height without shim and laying of the tape. I listen harmonic assonance and intervals
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gQ-ZInLsF4

 Johnkie
I take "mediator" to mean "plectrum", and "shim and laying of tape" to mean " using a muting strip" ?

Having watched this video I am at a total loss as to why such people are encouraged by others on this site. This guy cannot tune, and more importantly .... is in serious danger of snapping wrestpins the way he flagpoles them with his T bar socket set "tuning hammer" !
It is exactly this sort of person that gets the trade a bad name, and why his sort should not be able to post on a forum titled " tuner / technicians".
  It would be much more acceptable if this guy took heed of criticism and demonstrated a desire to learn, rather than being encouraged to carry on with his vandalism. Ten out of ten for his keeness ... but nought out of ten for skill !

UnrightTooner
Yes, it is painful to watch.
Still, only his cutomers are the rightful judges of his services.

 Loren D
I don't see how the string segments can be properly rendered and set by lightly plucking instead of striking.
Quote:
Still, only his cutomers are the rightful judges of his services.
Why, Jeff? The video is pretty clear.

UnrightTooner
Loren:
Call it the evolution concept. If no one wanted his services, this would not be occurring.

 Loren D
We have no idea how many want his services. *edit* Still though, I don't see how that translates into watching a video and not being able to make a judgement about what you see.

UnrightTooner
Loren:
I said it was painful to me, but my opinion does not matter.
Maybe this is an odd concept only used by oddballs... ?

 Dan Casdorph
Is he bending the pins to tune, or is there a rotary component I'm missing?

 Johnkie
With the greatest respect Jeff, you say that, - Quote "Still, only his cutomers are the rightful judges of his services."
Fellow tuner technicians are the ones that should be expected to judge the practises of such people posing as professionals. The customer trusts that the workman knows what he is doing.

 Zeno Wood
Maximillyan -
Have you tried a more traditional tuning lever? I worry that you will injure your wrist using your technique. I think that if I used your tuning tool I would suffer tendonitis very soon. I also wonder how stable your unisons are with your technique.
Nice to hear from you,
Zeno

 UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: Johnkie
With the greatest respect Jeff, you say that, - Quote "Still, only his cutomers are the rightful judges of his services."
 Fellow tuner technicians are the ones that should be expected to judge the practises of such people posing as professionals. The customer trusts that the workman knows what he is doing.
That can lead to cronyism, and is not a free market idea. 
I believe that the cream will always float to the top. In Max’s area he may very well be the cream!

Maximillyan
  Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
only his cutomers are the rightful judges of his services.
I nobody does not obtrude its method of the tuning. However consider that it exists to be. I tuning listen all sounds in accord interpretation. Carefully reconciling pin's motion . I don't carefree resource pin and pinblock. Try and judge

Maximillyan
  Originally Posted By: Dan Casdorph or is there a rotary component I'm missing? "Ловкость рук и никакого мошенничества"
Sleight of hand and no focuses

 rysowers
 Originally Posted By: Zeno Wood
Maximillyan -
Have you tried a more traditional tuning lever? I worry that you will injure your wrist using your technique. I think that if I used your tuning tool I would suffer tendonitis very soon. I also wonder how stable your unisons are with your technique.
Nice to hear from you,
Zeno

Zeno, you are such a good guy! Others on this forum could take a lesson from you...

 rxd
Perhaps 'Borat' is not far from the truth.
In the country of the blind, the one eyed man is King.
This is a free international forum and I hope it remains so but can we ban the whiners who complain about other posters?
Is it, perhaps, part of our function to be helpful to our brethren who have less access to what we so glibly take for granted.
Have we considered that the proper equipment is not readily available to Max.
There's an adage, if I am not part of the cure, then I'm part of the problem.
Sermon over. Go in peace to love and serve whomever you like but please, a little human decency.
Max. PM me your postal address and I will send to you a tuning lever and some other things that you may find useful.

 UnrightTooner
If I whine enough to get the whiners banned, will I be banned too? (Don't mind me. I went to my first foot washing yesterday.)

 rxd
I haven't ever heard you whine on this forum, Jeff, you'r far too well bred.
I read too quickly and thought you said you went first footing. Now, there's a thought, will the next wave of technology include getting cyberdrunk together?
Anyway, now that I read it properly, when are you getting the other one washed?.

 Johnkie
There's no need to wish for those that disagree with the plainly ridiculous working methods sometimes posted on this forum to be banned .... I know of a good many that have already left of their own accord!
To all those who have attained skill and expertise, I salute you - to those who haven't ... You win ... I'm not wasting anymore time on you. Have a good day y'all.

 rxd  
Originally Posted By: Johnkie

There's no need to wish for those that disagree with the plainly ridiculous working methods sometimes posted on this forum to be banned .... I know of a good many that have already left of their own accord!
To all those who have attained skill and expertise, I salute you - to those who haven't ... You win ... I'm not wasting anymore time on you. Have a good day y'all.

C'mon, Johnkie, I know you're still out there. Your contribution is far too valuable,
You sparked of the whole question of shall we condemn them or shall we help them?
For me to sermonise on a free society, then add my own petty restrictions was an attempt at injecting some humour as Jeff plainly noticed.
Praps I came across a bit parsimonious but I really believe what I said. Let's not pull up the ladder by which we all ascended.

 rysowers
Johnkie,
I hear they are in need of good technicians in Kazakhstan. This might be your big chance! Grab your tools and a Google translator, and you'll clean up!

 accordeur
Max, you should really consider rxd's offer to send you a tuning hammer!!!

Jean Poulin

 Loren D
You're absolutely right. It's better to allow someone to work on valuable instruments using substandard tools and methods rather than help someone improve by stating what's wrong. And silly me, I forgot my attendance trophy!

 Loren D

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

Originally Posted By: Johnkie

With the greatest respect Jeff, you say that, - Quote "Still, only his cutomers are the rightful judges of his services."
Fellow tuner technicians are the ones that should be expected to judge the practises of such people posing as professionals. The customer trusts that the workman knows what he is doing.

That can lead to cronyism, and is not a free market idea.
I believe that the cream will always float to the top. In Max’s area he may very well be the cream!

In other words, put the fellow tech's interest ahead of the piano owning public's. That would be cronyism.

 rxd
Originally Posted By: accordeur

Max, you should really consider rxd's offer to send you a tuning hammer!!!

Please do, Max. I am surrounded here by students and professors who read cyrilics and there must be some who understand your regional variation.

 Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: accordeur

Max, you should really consider rxd's offer to send you a tuning hammer!!!

Уважаемые господа фортепианные техники, до слёз тронут Вашей заботой и вниманием. То, что касается настроечных ключей и специального оборудования я к сожалению не имею ресурса оплатить расходы на их приобретение + почтовые расходы. Сегодня я выясню как правильно заполнить на английском языке почтовое отправление. Приму в дар настроечный профессиональный ключ, если возможно.
Dear Sirs piano technique, moved to tears by your care and attention. What concerns the tuning hammer and special equipment, I unfortunately do not have the resources to pay the costs for their purchase + postage. Today I'll find out how to fill in the English language mailing. I will accept the gift of pro tuning hammer
IN GOD WE TRUST

 rxd
Originally Posted By: Dan Casdorph

Is he bending the pins to tune, or is there a rotary component I'm missing?

Yes, there is a rotary component, and he is also bending the pins to tune. Many of us have seen skilful tuners get that last 2 cents by deliberately 'lifting' the pin. I learned this from a Japanese Master Tech years ago. I spent a week with him, both of us tuning our respective employers' pianos for a piano competition. Of course you have to know precicely where the pin is from a combined torque and flagpole standpoint and therein lies the skill. That, plus experience, years of it. It looks like Max has discovered this by himself. I believe there is hope.
We can always learn something. Did you notice his wedges fastened to a string and hung around his neck??? this man does not lack experience. Please don't start doing this yourselves or I will have to buy my own wedges instead of relying on treasure trove.
How much would it cost us to send him to Moscow or somewhere for a week's intensive training?? I believe he's the kind of person who only needs to see it done properly once.
As Jeff said, he's probably all they've got where he lives.

pianolive

Send me a note with your adress through my forum profile, and I will send you a pro tuninghammer. We have got several in the workshop and I will be happy to give you one.

 pianolive

rxd,
I have learned tuning in exactly the same way. It is actually a very precise work with the tuninghammer and it lets you "level out" the different tensions in the string without hitting the key with a hard blow. Good for your ears and good for the voicing of the hammer.

 pianosxxi
Sometime ago, in the 80's, one technician asked me if he can set a temperament by 1/2 steps. My answer to him was, if it sounds great why not, go ahead and do it. At that time, I knew technician that had extraordinary ability, he was able to tune a piano without any muters. He was a concert tuner in Moscow who tuned pianos for various classical performances.
Maximillian, in his video, show another approach to how a piano can be tuned. I appreciate him taking his time to share the knowledge and unique ability and various techniques he use during piano tuning process.
Few may not understand his method, but from their response I can also observe and say that they have no idea what they're doing themselves. Instead of negative comments, I would rather see a video recording to how they approach piano tuning (with commentaries). It will be interesting to compare.

UnrightTooner
Loren:
Are you suggesting that we somehow protect Max's customers from themselves?

 Loren D

Originally Posted By: pianosxxi

Sometime ago, in the 80's, one technician asked me if he can set a temperament by 1/2 steps. My answer to him was, if it sounds great why not, go ahead and do it. At that time, I knew technician that had extraordinary ability, he was able to tune a piano without any muters. He was a concert tuner in Moscow who tuned pianos for various classical performances.

No mutes at all? Not even when tuning the initial string of a unison?
Quote:Maximillian, in his video, show another approach to how a piano can be tuned. I appreciate him taking his time to share the knowledge and unique ability and various techniques he use during piano tuning process.
It appears he is using a wrench that affords no leverage at all to bend/twist a tuning pin rather than turn it. Maybe you can tell us why you appreciate that? Is trying to instruct him on better techniques somehow wrong, you're saying?
Quote:Few may not understand his method, but from their response I can also observe and say that they have no idea what they're doing themselves. Instead of negative comments, I would rather see a video recording to how they approach piano tuning (with commentaries). It will be interesting to compare.
Well there you have it! Those who use correct tools and pin setting techniques have no idea what they're doing themselves. I guess that settles it.

jayr
Unfortunately he might be the only tuner in the area and any that have to come from a long way charge mileage.
I only watched about 20 seconds and had to stop it.
Jay's Piano Tuning Service

 rxd
While I cannot answer for pianoxxi, what he seems to me to be saying is that there are people on this forum who don't know the half of it.
These people make themselves known by their gratuitous judgements. (anybody, when making a judgement of anybody else says more about themselves that the person they think they are judging), think about it!!. Look at the last few judgemental statements on this thread, they are mainly telling us of their lack of experience, in other words, what they don't know, or what they mistakenly think is the only way..
Alfred Howe wrote a book, Scientific Piano Tuning and Servicing, an American publication, I believe, from the '30's. In it, he devoted a couple of pages to tuning without wedges.
There is a famous woodcut from the 1840's of a diminutive but portly piano tuner in a frock coat reaching up to tune a very tall upright. We've all seen it, those of us that take an interest in our history. I can't find it on the web, just now but I'll look for it. I'm sure most of you know the one I mean, it's in a lot of books. In this woodcut, he is tuning with a T-hammer and I don't see any wedges, do you?
I can tune without wedges, I practiced it when I read it in Howes' book, I rarely use it today, just the odd unison correction and such.
Its just a matter of following the string that's moving in pitch. Takes practice, though, and is a good excercise. Another excercise is to sound the note a half step (or whole step) below the unison or octave you are tuning simultaneously with the note you are tuning. You will be surprised how much more clearly You can fine tune an unison or octave with this other sound going on.
One of my teachers, a well respected concert tuner in London, told me he was taught to tune with a T hammer.
When I was a professional musician, the tuner at most of the studios and theatres I worked in regularly tuned with a T-hammer, uprights and grands, and used only single wedges between the unisons. He did a solid job, those pianos got hammered for hours on end and stayed in tune. This was in the 1960's. I only saw him use a lever once this was on a small new upright that was known for it's tight pins
So far I haven't heard Max tune what we are pleased to call a good unison. That doesn't mean he can't, or doesnt care to, (I've known 2 tuners, both in major cities, who deliberately tune loose unisons and are never short of work. Do they know something I don't? they are not stupid people.
Max is tuning with something that behaves like a T-hammer but with the advantage of added leverage should it be needed
I saw a rotational movement in the first tuning manipulation of his tool and, when he let go, the shaft did not spring back up as it would have done had he flagpoled excessively. It did later in the video, though.
We are taught to support the lever with our thumb to prevent flagpoling. This is assuming that the flagpole set of the pin is optimal or 'correct'- it may not be. We are taught to ignore the flagpoling tendency of the pin. I say that we ignore anything at our peril. Many tuners bang on the keys brutally in tuning, this is totally unnecessary if the flagpole tendency is taken into account and used to your advantage. It's going to flagpole somewhat anyway, none of us is so good that it doesn't., at least, I haven't seen any.
I have had the privelige of working with both types of tuner and many that manipulate the lever in such a way that encompasses both methods., (I'm talking of tuners constantly involved in concert work). Neither way is 'Better' but give me the one less wearing on the ears and body in general.
None of this is a question of good/bad, black/white, it's just merely different.
I have in my posession 2 pianos that are 100 years old. I know they have been subject to this lifting technique and T hammer technique I spoke of in my last posting. Both pin blocks are no different that any other piano that age. Very nice to tune, whichever method I use.
Do you give yourself a choice of many different approaches to tuning, -You don't know the half of it.
Thanks, pianosxxi and you guys who came out of the woodwork on this subject.
There's more.

 rxd
Oh, I tried to tune a piano in halfsteps years ago purely by melodic interval, I failed miserably.
I'm going to try it again, though, just in the temperament octave. Who knows what I've developed in the last 50 years.
I tune melodically by halfsteps in the high treble on a pitch raise, I do it first, before the middle treble so theres less flattening by tuning the high treble in sequence. I have a tendency to go sharp, but on a pitch raise, that's a good thing.
Ever tried it?--You don't kno.............

 UnrightTooner
RXD:
Yes, I agree. Those that think they know it all should listen to us that really do!

 rxd

Jeff.
I only know what I know.
What I don't know, I can't be responsible for. Startng with my astonishing lack of ability to put them little emoticons on my posts.

 UnrightTooner

Originally Posted By: rxd

Jeff.
I only know what I know.
What I don't know, I can't be responsible for. Startng with my astonishing lack of ability to put them little emoticons on my posts.

That's right. And "people on this forum who don't know the half of it" can't be responsible for what they don't know either.
The emoticons are simple. Click on "Switch to Full Reply Screen" and then the smiley face. There will be a selection to choose from. The ones you use more often will be easy to remember. Like if you type : and right after ) you get

 rxd
My point exactly.
I'm familiar with them just can't get the yellow fancy ones to work on an iPhone. Oh. I get it. It doesn' t convert to the yellow one till I go to preview post.
Thanks. Jeff. Something else for me to play with while I'm away from home.

 Loren D
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

Loren:
Are you suggesting that we somehow protect Max's customers from themselves?

Jeff, my post is pretty easy to read; you know what I'm saying.

 pianosxxi
Originally Posted By: Loren D

Those who use correct tools and pin setting techniques have no idea what they're doing themselves. I guess that settles it.

With this in mind, one should understand the following:
The meaning of correct tools can at times be questionable. Especially when using the L shape tool, that create much more unnecessary bendings on the pin and pinblock than T shape.
If techs cannot explain why their technique is better or give an explanation why Max's technique is wrong. I have to come to one conclusion, they are likely have know idea what they are doing themselves.
Originally Posted By: Loren D
It appears he is using a wrench that affords no leverage at all to bend/twist a tuning pin rather than turn it. Maybe you can tell us why you appreciate that? Is trying to instruct him on better techniques somehow wrong, you're saying?
Unfortunately, this statement is incorrect. The T shape tuning hammer (wrench) gives you leverage and can bend and twist tuning pins, whatever you want and in any motion under precise control.
Nothing is wrong with sharing your special techniques to fellow piano technicians.

Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: pianosxxi
[quote=Loren D]Unfortunately, this statement is incorrect. The T shape tuning hammer (wrench) gives you leverage and can bend and twist tuning pins, whatever you want and in any motion under precise control.
Nothing is wrong with sharing your special techniques to fellow piano technicians.
Уважаемый Евгений, тронут до слёз развернувшейся полемикой вокруг темы: «Настройка с помощью медиатора». Не скрою, что не ожидал от нашего международного форума подобных широких, а самое главное конструктивных моментов обсуждения вопроса. Огромное спасибо всем техника, давшим лестные оценки в мой адрес. Позволю Евгений, Вас просить, в очередной раз протянуть руку помощи с просьбой перевода моих строк, чтобы была понятна моя позиция. Только Вы, как практик, способны донести до мировой общественности мои чаяния и личные переживания. Начну с лирической ноты, чтобы люди могли понять, почему Максим делает «всё шиворот-навыворот». Я начал пользоваться интернетом сравнительно недавно, менее 2 лет тому назад по причине моей бедности. Когда я увидел клипы в сети, как некоторые настройщики настраивают, не скрою, был удивлён и даже обескуражен, теми методами и подходами, которые они применяют в вопросах темперации и их техникой работы с ключом. Это вовсе не значит, что они это делают неправильно, и только я знаю, «как надо настраивать пианино». Меня удивила техника работы ключом, а именно, очень резкие и непродуманные вращения, ведущие к завышению требуемого тона, а затем отпускания. Вы, наверное, Евгений понимаете о чём я? Думаю Вам как практику настройщику, работавшему в Союзе, хорошо известно, что колки в советских инструментах очень часто установлены в пробке вербильбанка или окошке посадочного места пробки (панцирный вид рамы) не по центру. И, подобная практика не допустима. Движения при настройке «Беларуси» или «Токкаты» сродни работы сапёра на минном поле. Здесь каждое движение необходимо сначала проанализировать с точки зрения физики и философии врача «не навреди», иначе не будет ни то, что строя, а даже его приблизительного подобия, а уж потом плавно вести давление всей руки, игнорируя вороток ключа, подключая сжатый кулак в основание ключа. Я иногда, простите за некоторую нескромность, «вытягиваю с того Света», очередную советскую модель пианино и искренне вместе с клиентом радуюсь за инструмент на котором был поставлен «крест». Как я пришёл к тому, что работаю самодельными, но очень качественными ключами, с точки зрения физики? Вновь должен сделать лирическое отступление. Когда я был очень юный и обучался в Уральском Государственном музыкальном училище, по программе необходимо было изучать предмет «общее фортепиано», а я народник (баянист), то родители пожертвовали в то, неспокойное время перестройки сумму денег, чтобы я мог приобрести себе подержанную « Украину» 1967г. Инструмент мне настроил в то время неплохой настройщик в нашем городе, но как Вы понимаете он менее чем через год расстроился, и я вынужден был как то выходить из сложившейся ситуации. Денег на настройку на было, а зачёты по гармонии и теории

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