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Tuning piano, children, music Воскресенье, 23.07.2017, 19:44
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Главная » Статьи » Настройка фортепиано

Tuning a piano with mediator (plectrum). Настройка фортепиано с медиатором. 5

Продолжение дискуссии, часть 5.

If I understood Kees correctly, we need a plectrum to pluck at the same time 2 or 3 strings. And find the differents between its. That's the theory. The human ear can discern and eliminate inaccuracies, if this sounds small delay
maxim_tuner_bodger

JohnSprung

Originally Posted By: DoelKees

If they are out of phase but at the same frequency there will be no beats.

True, but out of phase at the same frequency causes cancellation and reduces the sound output. Probably not important, though, since it's beats you're listening for.
The cause of beats is that a slight difference in frequencies makes them go back and forth between adding and cancellation.

UnrightTooner

Originally Posted By: DoelKees

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

For both strings to sound in phase (sound "beatless”) they also need to be struck at the same time.

Why? If they are out of phase but at the same frequency there will be no beats.
Kees

True, there would be no beats IF you could get them to the exact same frequency. But it is difficult to get that last 1/4 or ½ cent. When they are struck at the same time and are in phase, then they couple even though separately they are not quite at the same frequency. There is a "tsiinnggg" sound at the attack that can be heard. And I have heard some recordings where, I believe, the unisons were tuned to just barely couple. It can make the melody really stand out.
This can be observed when a hammer is not well mated to the strings. It is much harder, or impossible, to get a good unison and it will go out quicker. This coupling is also why false beats can often be reduced or eliminated with careful unison tuning. That is what I believe, anyway.
[Edit:] This may also be why unisons are not tuned with ETDs. I don't know how a machine could recognise and guide the tuning of coupled strings.

rxd

Wasn't there an article on this in Scientific American in '70's?
This is also the reason I check for noisy note termination(dampers) with the shift pedal down. If they're gonna b noisy at all, that's when they're at their most noticeable.

pianolive
"True, there would be no beats IF you could get them to the exact same frequency"
But if strings have false beats, you often tune the three strings at different freq. to get the chore beatless.
In older Steinway O grands the speaking lenghts of the last wounded strings at the break, can differ quite much from 6 - 11 mm in one chore. If those strings are tuned at the same freq. the do beat terrible. They must be tuned at different freq, which we automatically do when tuning aurally. When checked with a program it becomes clear that they are at different freq. but beatless together.
I guess it is the same in other instruments too.

DoelKees

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

Originally Posted By: DoelKees

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

For both strings to sound in phase (sound "beatless”) they also need to be struck at the same time.

Why? If they are out of phase but at the same frequency there will be no beats.
Kees

True, there would be no beats IF you could get them to the exact same frequency. But it is difficult to get that last 1/4 or ½ cent. When they are struck at the same time and are in phase, then they couple even though separately they are not quite at the same frequency.

This could also be used as an argument for tuning with a plectrum. If the strings are not at the exact same frequency but you rely on the coupling to pull them in tune, a small change in tension will take them out of the coupling range and you'll have an off unison.
However if you tuned them more accurately to the same freq. by plucking them, the unison would be even better with the hammer due to the string coupling, and more stable (as you have more "wiggling room").
Finally when plucking, you can more easily excite the higher harmonics, leading to higher accuracy. First because the nature of the plucking excitation causes a more bright sound even when done at the same location as the hammer, second because you can pluck closer to the termination to get the higher harmonics.
I would think the reasons not to pluck are 1) it is too time consuming and 2) if the strings in the unison do not quite match you have to go for the "best sound" which you can get only by listening to how it actually sounds with the hammer.
Kees

UnrightTooner
Doel:
I always enjoy your objective outlook. Truly!
I have zero ETD experience. If they were appropriate for unison tuning, it would either be recommended to do so or tuners would anyway.
And I am not so sure that higher harmonics lead to higher accuracy. The higher the partial the more affected by iH. And if there is a slight difference in iH the difference will be greater with higher partials.

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: DoelKees

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

Originally Posted By: DoelKees

[quote=UnrightTooner]For both strings to sound in phase (sound "beatless”) they also need to be struck at the same time.

Why? If they are out of phase but at the same frequency there will be no beats.Kees

Finally when plucking, you can more easily excite the higher harmonics, leading to higher accuracy. First because the nature of the plucking excitation causes a more bright sound even when done at the same location as the hammer, second because you can pluck closer to the termination to get the higher harmonics.
I would think the reasons not to pluck are 1) it is too time consuming and 2) if the strings in the unison do not quite match you have to go for the "best sound" which you can get only by listening to how it actually sounds with the hammer.Kees

BRAVO, Kees!

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: pianolive

the speaking lenghts of the last wounded strings at the break, can differ quite much from 6 - 11 mm in one chore. If those strings are tuned at the same freq. the do beat terrible. They must be tuned at different freq, which we automatically do when tuning aurally.

think that's debatable. I do not have such a practice

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: rxd

Wasn't there an article on this in Scientific American in '70's?

that article about?

rxd

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: rxd

Wasn't there an article on this in Scientific American in '70's?

that article about?

About coupling of strings and behaviour of 3rd string through the bridge when only 2 of 3 Strings Is struck, As in operating the shift(left) pedal in a grand.
I think I saw it copied on the web. Does anybody have a link?

UnrightTooner

I cannot find the Scientific American article on the web, but here is a link that mentions it in regards to the coupling of strings:
http://flux.aps.org/meetings/YR97/BAPSTSS97/abs/S1010002.html

Maximillyan
Thank,Jeff Deutschle

UnrightTooner
Ugh,
Now I remember how this subject is treated in an ugly way:
http://www.speech.kth.se/music/5_lectures/weinreic/weinreic.html

Maximillyan

Dear piano's technicks, I today rescued a piano "Belarus" 1959. This is a piano never no one ever tuning up. Maxim worked during the day . Originally a piano played terrible! I think that the tuning took place. I look forward to your constructive criticism tuning piano with plectrum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzL2yAOOAuQ

DoelKees

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

I have zero ETD experience. If they were appropriate for unison tuning, it would either be recommended to do so or tuners would anyway.

OK, but we discuss plucking here, not ETD's. I agree with you, it's just a matter of knowing why.

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

And I am not so sure that higher harmonics lead to higher accuracy. The higher the partial the more affected by iH. And if there is a slight difference in iH the difference will be greater with higher partials.

True.
Kees

DoelKees

I tried tuning a couple of unisons today with the plucking method. Once I get the fast beats out by plucking close to the termination (i.e., the higher harmonics rapid beats are now too slow to detect), the unison is perfect when played with hammer. When tuning the same unison with the hammer, after getting it aurally equally perfect I could then detect a small beat in the higher harmonics when plucking. When correcting this using plucking and going back to using the hammer it sounded the same. But I think it should theoretically then be more stable.
I cherry picked the unisons for well matched strings. When I tried on a unison with some problems, the resulting unison from plucking depended on where I'd pluck and never sounded as good as when I tuned with the hammer (the piano hammer, not the tuning hammer), for obvious reasons.
I think this is all as expected, and I'm happy now that I understand what's going on.
It seems with this plucking technique you should be prepared to spend 6 hours on a tuning, as it will not work on less than perfectly matched strings, so you have to go through the plucking stage, then strike with the hammers, decide which strings have a problem etc.
A somewhat related factoid: I play a lot with santur players. A santur (also called dulcimer) is like a piano without action lying on the table and you hit the strings (3 per unison) with mallets you hold in your hand. Every santur player I know tunes by plucking the strings. It need to be (and is by the pro's) tuned about every 15 mins.
Kees

rxd

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

Dear piano's technicks, I today rescued a piano "Belarus" 1959. This is a piano never no one ever tuning up. Maxim worked during the day . Originally a piano played terrible! I think that the tuning took place. I look forward to your constructive criticism tuning piano with plectrum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzL2yAOOAuQ

Thank you, Max for this video. It shows how well that you are adding our suggestions to your own technique. It looks as though that piano has pins just a little too tight to turn with one hand. You have stopped flagpoling the pin and your unisons are much cleaner.
I noticed you turn the pin some times with the tool in L shape (not T) with no flagpoling that as a good skill to have and will enable you to turn the pin and tune finer without changing tools or using both hands. This is just a suggestion that may help you todevelop a more efficient technique with the tools you have.
I am impressed by how you can estimate quite accurately how much to turn the pin with both hands and no notes sounding. With this skill, it is possible for you to get the string close to in tune and then refine the tuning with one hand while playing the note from the key with the other.
You can stop the strings that you don't need to hear with wedges made from soft material like felt or rubber so that you only have two strings sounding at one time. You saw this in the Japanese video.
You will find this quicker because plucking the strings takes more time and would take 3 hands to do efficiently. That is the reason I don't take time to pluck strings.
There is a discussion in this thread that points out some of the possible advantages of plucking. I will certainly try it next time I tune a piano and have time.
Thank you for making us all think about what we are doing.
Is that your family in the background? They look very happy.

UnrightTooner

Max:
You will get many different perspectives from us. Mine is just one of many.
I do not see the flagpoling by itself being a problem to tuning. I see the EFFECTS of flagpoling on the PITCH, while the flagpoling is occurring, as the problem. There are problems with flagpoling that are separate from tuning, though.
If you were tuning in the typical way, the pitch change due to flagpoling would be a problem. The typical way is to play the note and tune one untuned string to other tuned strings. (Mutes are needed to do this.) While the note is being played, the pin is turned until the interval between the notes is correct. (The interval may be a unison, octave, fifth, etc.)
If there is a large amount of flagpoling in the direction of the string, then when the tuning hammer is no longer being turned, the pitch will change. The usual way to deal with flagpoling is to put the tuning hammer in line with the string. Then the flagpoling will not affect the pitch because the flagpoling is in the direction of across the string, not in line with the string.
Since you are plucking a string, turning the pin, and then checking the result, I do not see the flagpoling as a problem in tuning. The effect of flagpoling on the change of pitch no longer exists when the note is checked. The real problem is tuning mostly by listening to pitch, rather than by listening to intervals. Listening to intervals is the typical way to tune.
However, there is problem with flagpoling that has nothing to do with tuning. Flagpoling puts sideways pressure on the hole in the pinblock. It is good that you are now using a technique that reduces this flagpoling. A typical tuning hammer reduces flagpoling by having the head of the hammer closer to the pin. Maybe you can modify one of your tools to work more like a typical tuning hammer. Then you could try tuning intervals rather than by mostly listening to separate pitches. You will need mutes to do this. A wedge of rubber would be like a typical mute.

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: DoelKees

When tuning the same unison with the hammer, after getting it aurally equally perfect I could then detect a small beat in the higher harmonics when plucking. When correcting this using plucking and going back to using the hammer it sounded the same. But I think it should theoretically then be more stable. I think this is all as expected, and I'm happy now that I understand what's going on.

Dear Kees, you really understand correctly that the harmonic sounds are different from each other. This is not just a theory, but practice. I first create a sound pick, and then check the usual playback using the keyboard. So that I created the sound in practice no different from the sound which was created by mute way. I am glad to know that you are actively practicing the method of plucking. There is one huge disadvantage - a lot of time spent on tuning sound and it analysis. However, this is offset by careful attitude to the mechanisms; (pin- pin’s hole- pinblock). Stability and durability of this method is undeniable
Respect you from maxim_tuner_bodger

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

Since you are plucking a string, turning the pin, and then checking the result, I do not see the flagpoling as a problem in tuning. The effect of flagpoling on the change of pitch no longer exists when the note is checked. The real problem is tuning mostly by listening to pitch, rather than by listening to intervals. Listening to intervals is the typical way to tune.
Maybe you can modify one of your tools to work more like a typical tuning hammer. Then you could try tuning intervals rather than by mostly listening to separate pitches. You will need mutes to do this. A wedge of rubber would be like a typical mute.

Dear Jeff, the entire analysis of my way tuning and most importantly all your recommendations are correct and I think that they will help me in my job. I understood you and I be sure to make SUCH hammer!
Regards maxim_tuner_bodger

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: rxd

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

Dear piano's technicks, I today rescued a piano "Belarus" 1959. This is a piano never no one ever tuning up. Maxim worked during the day . Originally a piano played terrible! I think that the tuning took place. I look forward to your constructive criticism tuning piano with plectrum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzL2yAOOAuQ

Thank you, Max for this video. It shows how well that you are adding our suggestions to your own technique. It looks as though that piano has pins just a little too tight to turn with one hand. You have stopped flagpoling the pin and your unisons are much cleaner.
THANKS
I noticed you turn the pin some times with the tool in L shape (not T) with no flagpoling that as a good skill to have and will enable you to turn the pin and tune finer without changing tools or using both hands. This is just a suggestion that may help you todevelop a more efficient technique with the tools you have.
I am impressed by how you can estimate quite accurately how much to turn the pin with both hands and no notes sounding. With this skill, it is possible for you to get the string close to in tune and then refine the tuning with one hand while playing the note from the key with the other.
You can stop the strings that you don't need to hear with wedges made from soft material like felt or rubber so that you only have two strings sounding at one time. You saw this in the Japanese video.
You will find this quicker because plucking the strings takes more time and would take 3 hands to do efficiently. That is the reason I don't take time to pluck strings.
There is a discussion in this thread that points out some of the possible advantages of plucking. I will certainly try it next time I tune a piano and have time.
Thank you for making us all think about what we are doing.
Is that your family in the background? They look very happy.


The technique of L and T, I intentionally included to show the versatility of my key. I'm can work both left and right hand the same way, for me it makes no difference.
My extensive experience allows me to turning the pin originally without sound. When I find sharp tone and I am fix it's.
Your wishes with wedges (Japanese video) are taken into account.
If you look closely, in my various video: here different people, women and children. I am not a polygamist, it's my customers. They are happy that I came. Their desire is to get as a result of my visit, well-tuned up piano
sincerely yours maxim_tuner_bodger

rxd

I can see how string tunes differently by plucking. Whenever I completely revoice a piano it seems to want to tune slightly differently than before any changes.
I never do retune, not for any artistic reasons but because the changes are so slight as to not warrant it. Or am I merely justifying my laziness? I also have a taste for benign neglect.
Anyway, when we get to fine tuning it might by an issue and it might not.
I'm about to listen to some Beethoven, Schumann & Liszt on a 1914 Chapell 9' grand that I just tuned with a T hammer. The pianists love it. It had been sounding a little 'quaint' here and there at higher dynamic levels, depending on who was playing it. Some back of the hammer needling has taken all that away and it is an amazing piano now.

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: rxd

I'm about to listen to some Beethoven, Schumann & Liszt on a 1914 Chapell 9' grand that I just tuned with a T hammer. The pianists love it. It had been sounding a little 'quaint' here and there at higher dynamic levels, depending on who was playing it. Some back of the hammer needling has taken all that away and it is an amazing piano now.

Dear rxd, I am Very pleased! I'd love to hear and see a little piece of video. Discussion pianists about this a piano and tuning now, if possible.
sincerely yours,maxim_tuner_bodger

pianolive

Please correct me if I misunderstand, but are you guys talking about tuning pianos by plucking the strings?
First set temp and then tune the rest of the instrument by plucking?

rxd

Originally Posted By: pianolive

Please correct me if I misunderstand, but are you guys talking about tuning pianos by plucking the strings?
First set temp and then tune the rest of the instrument by plucking?

Yes, but go back to the beginning of this thread to see how it morphed that way.

Dan Casdorph

Maximillyan:
How long does it take you to tune a piano?
Dan

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: Dan Casdorph

How long does it take you to tune a piano


Dan,If the piano is in good technical condition ( tight pin- pin's hole- pinblock ) then I shall tuning more than 5 hours, new 7-9 h

BDB

I schedule between one and two hours for most tunings.

Monaco

I'm a beginner and it takes me less than 2 hours to tune, plus a little for the set up, adjustments, inspection etc.

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: Monaco

I'm a beginner and it takes me less than 2 hours to tune,

"No bad cats. There are cooks who do not know how cook it's". Chinese folk wisdom

DoelKees

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: Dan Casdorph

How long does it take you to tune a piano

Dan,If the piano is in good technical condition ( tight pin- pin's hole- pinblock ) then I shall tuning more than 5 hours, new 7-9 h

It took me about 4 mins to tune a single 3 string unison with the plucking method. Times 88 that's about the time you mention, taking into accounts not all notes have 3 strings but you also have to set a temperament.
Using either a muting strip or rubber dampers you can cut this time down to 1-2 hrs.
How do you set the temperament (make sure all intervals are equal)?
Kees

Mark R.

Kees,
You can see in the videos that Max's "temperament" (if one can call it that?!) is based on 4ths, 5ths and octaves, using major triads as auxiliary notes (marked in red below).
e.g.
A4 --> E4 (playing C#4,E4,A4)
A4 --> D5 (playing F#4,A4,D5)
D5 --> D4 (octave, or playing D major)
D4 --> G4 (playing B3,D4,G4)
etc. etc.
My problem in calling this a "temperament" is that these auxiliary notes are not even tuned yet! Given this, I'm surprised at some of the results he does get.
Monaco,
Not that I'm keen on "fast and furious", but do you perhaps have a recording of one of your tunings that you did in less than two hours? I'm a beginner too, and although I might manage a pitch raise in less than two hours, a fine tuning definitely takes me longer.

Dan Casdorph

The reason I asked about time is because there was once a beginning tuner here who I saw doing a floor tuning in a store. I stood back and watched/listened for a few minutes and I found his methods curious.

He played the key and used mutes to tune using a traditional tuning lever. However, he did not play while he was tuning the string.He tuned silently. He would work his tuning lever, then play the note and listen. If the note/unison was off, he would either raise or lower the string silently, then play the note. He would then decide whether to raise or lower the pitch depending on whether the beats were getting better or worse.
I watched for about 10 minutes in total confusion as he struggled to tune a couple of unisons in the treble.
He never was able to get his tuning time under 4-5 hours and he quit tuning.

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: Mark R.

Kees,
You can see in the videos that Max's "temperament" (if one can call it that?!) is based on 4ths, 5ths and octaves, using major triads as auxiliary notes (marked in red below).
e.g.
A4 --> E4 (playing C#4,E4,A4)
A4 --> D5 (playing F#4,A4,D5)
D5 --> D4 (octave, or playing D major)
D4 --> G4 (playing B3,D4,G4)

Dear Mark I did not set to show in your videos are absolutely accurate (final) fixation of sounds. Customers shoot me in the process of temperament. With regard to major triads you just said. This is just search sound one of my original methods . Now I shall looking for a broken piano to the online mode to configure it for an extended period of time

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: DoelKees

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: Dan Casdorph

How long does it take you to tune a piano

Dan,If the piano is in good technical condition ( tight pin- pin's hole- pinblock ) then I shall tuning more than 5 hours, new 7-9 h

you can cut this time down to 1-2 hrs.How do you set the temperament (make sure all intervals are equal)?Kees

Thanks Kees,but I think the rush is not necessary, to avoid errors and the quality was not affected

BDB

It is not necessarily the case that taking more time results in better tuning. Usually those who take longer get the worst results.
For concerts, I often have only one hour to tune the piano. That includes replacing strings I might break. If I run over, the audience has to wait until I finish. Most of the time, the piano is fairly well in tune beforehand, but I never can tell how the weather has affected the piano until I start tuning.

dancarney

I can 'chip' a piano in around 50/55 mins, which can then be fine tuned in around 30 mins, give or take.
It takes practise, however. I hope I can improve on the above time, just for kicks.
Kees, you'll be able to improve your time quite easily by practising.
I don't intend to craft a career from chipping, but it is a fairly efficient way of raising/levelling pitch.

rxd
Originally Posted By: BDB

For concerts, I often have only one hour to tune the piano. That includes replacing strings I might break.

One hour is quite standard for a concert tuning.
How old are these concert pianos that are breaking strings?
Or are you an unusually heavy handed tuner?

Monaco

Mark,
Do you use an ETD?

BDB

The newest piano is 5 years old. I am not the only one who breaks strings on it. That is about par for heavily used concert pianos.

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: rxd

Originally Posted By: BDB

For concerts, I often have only one hour to tune the piano. That includes replacing strings I might break.

an unusually heavy handed tuner?

I am HARD tuner

Monaco

Does tuning with a plectrum provide enough inertia to the string to allow it to equalize over it's pressure points? I doubt it. Unless you pluck the HECK out of it, then maybe.
What makes one a heavy handed tuner? The strength of his blows or the amount that one raises pitch above the desired frequency? Is it at all likely that you could brake a string by smacking the key? My initial thought is that if there is such a thing as a heavy handed tuner it must be the latter.

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: Monaco

if there is such a thing as a heavy handed tuner it must be the latter.

Hard fixation of pin as soon as possible, without re-return. But in practice I can not boast that it is happening at once and not have to go back to adjust the sound

Continuation follows. Читать дальше ->


Категория: Настройка фортепиано | Добавил: donguluk (06.11.2011) | Автор: maxim-tuner E W
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    donguluk Западный Казахстан Настройка пианино Уральск ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз электронное сольфеджио Уральск Запа ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз электронное сольфеджио Уральск Запа ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз электронное сольфеджио Уральск Запа maxum tuner ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз электронное сольфеджио Уральск Запа ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз электронное сольфеджио Уральск Запа ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз электронное сольфеджио Уральск Запа ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз электронное сольфеджио Уральск Запа ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз электронное сольфеджио Уральск Запа ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз электронное сольфеджио Уральск Запа ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз электронное сольфеджио Уральск Запа ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз электронное сольфеджио Уральск Запа ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз электронное сольфеджио Уральск Запа maxim-tuner ансамбли Молоканова Ирина ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз переложения для фортепиано Восстановление фортепиано Жиганов максим тюнер наводнение Наводнение Уральск Наталья Швабенланд ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз пианино технология настройки восстановление пианино после наводн ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз ключ для настройки фортепиано Призрак в туннеле ключ фортепиано Рояль стоимость настройки Западній Казахстан ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз Казахстан hammer piano настойка пианино ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз ремонт молоточка фортепиано максим-тюнер deformed pedals piano takedown and installation ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз ремонт педали ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз форум Классика tuning piano Barrie Heaton Johnkie rxd Withindale ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз Чистка пианино от пыли ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз Маша Сидорович пианино Петроф пианино Беларусь фестиваль-конкурс юных талантов детская музыкальная школа №1 Уральс детская музыкальная школа №1 Уральс ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз Деркул парк Кирова Рихтер Рыбалка татуировки тюрьма Урал Чаган ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз Юрий Владимирович Иванов ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз настройка фортепиано колок Максим ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз работа настроечным ключом Т-бар гофрокартон ремонт пианино запрессовка колка ключ для настройки пианино колки ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз сольфеджио maxim_tuner ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз ноты для детей Уральск מוסיקה לילדים электронное сольфеджио Уральск Germano De Rossi Gian Luca Pasolini Stefano Malferrari Елена Коробейникова Ернар Мынтаев Мария Сидорович Роза Тленчиева Фиесталония Миленио ноты для детей Уральсk электронное сольфеджио Уральсk corrugated cardboard max tuning pin without cardboard shim укрепление строя пианино ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз струна аккорд настроечный ключ ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз клавиши колковая доска Циммерман чугунная плита ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз аккордеон басы баян ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз ремонт баяна после удара ремонт музыкальных инструментов оцинкованный колок ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз Уральск настройка пианино ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз электронное сольфеджио ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз Первоклассник ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз ноты для детей Уральск Западный Каз 噴粉 服務鋼琴 航空 электронное сольфеджио Уральск Запа 儿童音樂 уральск ноты для детей настройка пианино maxim tuner kz Наводнение в Уральске восстановление пианино после наводн восстановление пианино после наводн восстановление пианино после наводн восстановление пианино после наводн восстановление пианино после наводн восстановление пианино после наводн восстановление пианино после наводн восстановление пианино после наводн Светлан детская музыкальная школа №1 Уральс детская музыкальная школа №1 Уральс детская музыкальная школа №1 Уральс Светлана Вастьянова детская музыкальная школа №1 Уральс детская музыкальная школа №1 Уральс детская музыкальная школа №1 Уральс наурыз детская музыкальная школа №1 Уральс Жания Аубакирова детская музыкальная школа №1 Уральс Басовый штег Екатеринобург Наталия Швечкова Ремонт фортепиано настройка
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