Продолжение дискуссии, часть 4.

method two is enough.
Regards, Max.

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: Thrill Science

больше симпатии к вам!

Роберт,весьма польщён, спасибо за слова благодарности.

rxd

Just to be clear. What Max is calling a T hammer is not what we know as a T hammer. Max is using a cleverly adapted socket set and he is using it differently.

rxd

Max,
first of all, let me congratulate you on your vastly improved English skills in your recent posts. I feel we can say more without being misunderstood.
What is concerning a lot of people here is the way you use your tuning tool. To us, it looks like the pins are being 'flagpoled' (meaning leaned out of line without much turning) with a degree of force that we see as too much.
It is outside our traditions to tune by plucking the strings. We sound the notes with the piano keys.
We isolate or separate out each individual string with soft wedges. The final test is to sound the note with the key and listen for a completely still note with no interference in the sustain.
Then we sound many different pairs of notes within the middle octave so that their relashionship to each other is correct.
The main difference is to have each note completely still with no movement in the sustain of the note. Listen to any good recording and you will hear this.
So far we have not heard this in your tuning so there are different expectations.

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: rxd

Max is using a cleverly adapted socket set and he is using it differently.

Dear rxd, regrettably I very busy now. Considering Your to me objectivity, ask You to give the exact name of my "homemade hammer". If possible explain the participants of the forum: As this "homemade hammer" do? Respectfully yours,Maximillyan

rxd

Is your tuning tool sold commercially as a tuning tool specifically for pianos? If so, I apologise. To us, it looks like what we call a 'socket set' that can be bought cheaply at automotive stores.
In one of your videos it looks gold plated in a presentation case, so we could be very wrong. Most of is are going by your first video which we found alarming.
Your use of it seems drastic in the 'bending' of the tuning pins. To some, it looks dangerously close to breaking the pins.
We expect our tunings to stay in tune a long time. To us, your method looks like the setting of the tuning pins is not present in the usual way. If we are wrong, please explain what you are doing.
We would be more convinced if we heard a 'still' note (as explained in my previous post) on your videos because that is what a good, experienced pianist expects from us. So far, we haven't heard one.
You live in a town of 300,000? If you were to be asked to tune the piano in your nearest concert hall, for a visiting well known pianist, still notes, with no beats or pulsations in their sustain would be expected.
Anybody out there can describe this better than me? Please have a go.

Mark R.

I'll try.
I really like this video, even if I don't understand a word of Japanese.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbNYS6Oot4M&feature=related
0:00 - 1:56:
He gives a very good graphic illustration of unisons (single notes). He shows the beating and the still unisons (notes) with his hand.
1:58 - 3:51:
He sets the pitch and builds his temperament.
3:52 - 5:36:
He demonstrates unison tuning. As far as I can hear, he tunes very nice unisons!

Loren D

That is an EXCELLENT video.

UnrightTooner

Sure, RXD, I will give it a try. Math is a universal language.
Max:
Let us start with A-440, which on the piano is A4. A4 is the 4th A from the bottom. If one string on A4 is at 440hz and another is at 441hz a "beat” will occur. This "beat” will occur once every second like a slow vibrato. It may sound like the pitch is raising and falling. Actually the volume is growing louder and softer. As the waves go into and out of phase the volume increases and decreases.
The goal is to have both strings (eventually all three strings) at exactly 440hz. Of course, nothing is exact, this is just the goal. When the two strings are very close (about 0.25hz) they will "couple”. When they "couple” they will stay in phase.
For both strings to sound in phase (sound "beatless”) they also need to be struck at the same time. A plectrum will not do this, but the piano’s hammer will. There are times to use a plectrum. Plucking individual strings to determine problems is useful. Many strings in the treble will have false beats. This is when a single string will sound with a beat. Plucking can be used to determine which string has a false beat. But when tuning two strings to sound as one, it is best to use the piano’s hammer to sound the strings.
Now let us discuss your tuning tool. The commercial name is a T-bar socket wrench:


I applaud you for having a tapered socket made for yours. 
A piano tuning T-hammer is different:



And a typical tuning hammer is even more different:



There are some major differences between how your tuning tool works and how normal tuning hammers works. Your tool causes a large amount of flagpoling. Flagpoling is when the pin bends as torque is applied to the pin. It is caused by the distance between the plane of force and the plane of the resistance. The handle of the tool is in the plane of force. The pinblock is in the plane of resistance.
With a tuning T-hammer the flagpoling can be completely eliminated. The force can be applied to both sides of the hammer equally. Your tool can also completely eliminate flagpoling. You would need to slide the bar to a middle position and grab the bar in the middle while using it. This may not be possible with a four sided socket on an upright. This will also be difficult when the pins are tight.
With a typical tuning hammer the flagpoling is reduced. And the effect of the remaining flagpoling can be controlled. It is reduced by having the plane of force close to the plane of resistance. In other words: the socket is shorter. The effect of the remaining flagpoling is controlled by the positioning of the hammer. When the hammer handle is in line with the strings, the remaining flagpoling will not affect the pitch of the string being tuned. An eight sided tip (socket) allows more choices of position and better control.
However, flagpoling can be useful in "setting the pin”. Setting the pin is when the residual twist in the pin is equalized and when the difference in tension between the speaking part of the string and the non-speaking parts of the strings is equalized. A string will not stay at the pitch it was tuned at unless the "pin has been set.”
Those on this Forum have many disagreements. One thing that we can agree on is that we would like to see the pianos that you are tuning, be tuned much better. A typical tuning hammer and typical tuning technique is the way for the pianos to be tuned much better.

rxd
Originally Posted By: Loren D
That is an EXCELLENT video.

+1
if a picture paints a thousand words, a moving picture paints a million.
With sound, a billion.
Something constructive. Now, how Max responds to instruction will dictate the next move. We await his next video with clean(er) unisons and cleaner technique.
Thanks, Mark.
Thanks, Jeff, too. You posted while I was waxing praise.

Mark R.

My pleasure. I was elated when I found that video, between all the noise on youtube.
For the record: I am in no position to criticise, let alone instruct anyone here. But I can still share what I hear and see and think is worthwhile. That video shows a level to which I can only aspire myself!

Loren D

Interesting, though. Watching him tune with the lever at 2:00, he obviously flags the pin downward a bit when rotating counterclockwise, while using a slight upward push to set. I've always tended to pull slightly upward and then set with a slightly downward push; sort of the reverse of what he does. His way seems more relaxed. He definitely sets a nice unison!

UnrightTooner

Originally Posted By: Loren D

Interesting, though. Watching him tune with the lever at 2:00, he obviously flags the pin downward a bit when rotating counterclockwise, while using a slight upward push to set. I've always tended to pull slightly upward and then set with a slightly downward push; sort of the reverse of what he does. His way seems more relaxed. He definitely sets a nice unison!

You can only tell so much from a video, although this is a very good one! He may not be actually moving the foot of the pin when going CCW, but merely rendering the string. And the final CW movement may be what is called "the monkey’s tail” to equalize the torque in the pin. The term is seldom heard. The technique is valuable for very tight pins with plenty of V-bar friction. This is the situation where I will also use tuning blows. But then he just may be doing the reverse of what you and I normally do, Loren. It's hard to be sure...
The two things that struck me were that he puts the tuning fork between his teeth, as I do. But I put it between my front teeth. And he must have inserted the muting strip from right to left instead of left to right as I do. I will have to try both variations.
Thanks Mark!

rxd
Originally Posted By: Mark R.

My pleasure. I was elated when I found that video, between all the noise on youtube.
For the record: I am in no position to criticise, let alone instruct anyone here. But I can still share what I hear and see and think is worthwhile. That video shows a level to which I can only aspire myself!

That puts you in an even better position to help in the way you do. Some of us don't or can't or daren't analyse what we do any more.
Thanks again.

Monaco
What do you all think about the intensity of his blows. It appears to me that he never uses a "test blow." Do you find this acceptable?

rxd

We'll get to that all in good time.
In the meantime, some of the most solid concert tuners I ever knew in any country didn't get much above mf.
They knew how to set pins and deal with tension equalisation entirely by the feel of the pin as it relates to the pitch. You may have heard their work on many recordings.
I have leveled strings with one of their tunings on the piano and nothing moved. It's a whole different ballgame with them.
Beating a piano to death while tuning signifies nothing.

Loren D

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

Originally Posted By: Loren D

Interesting, though. Watching him tune with the lever at 2:00, he obviously flags the pin downward a bit when rotating counterclockwise, while using a slight upward push to set. I've always tended to pull slightly upward and then set with a slightly downward push; sort of the reverse of what he does. His way seems more relaxed. He definitely sets a nice unison!

You can only tell so much from a video, although this is a very good one! He may not be actually moving the foot of the pin when going CCW, but merely rendering the string. And the final CW movement may be what is called "the monkey’s tail” to equalize the torque in the pin. The term is seldom heard. The technique is valuable for very tight pins with plenty of V-bar friction. This is the situation where I will also use tuning blows. But then he just may be doing the reverse of what you and I normally do, Loren. It's hard to be sure...
Actually, my bad, Jeff; I meant to say flagpoling when turning clockwise, not counter-clockwise. That's what I get for typing before caffeine! When he's raising pitch, with the lever at 2:00 or so, he's got to be pulling the pin downward a bit. You'll then notice he overshoots, and then sets the pin by untwisting and pushing up; the opposite of what I was used to doing, which is manipulating the pin slightly up while raising, and then down (toward the floor) when setting.
Sorry for the confusion!

JohnSprung

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

For both strings to sound in phase (sound "beatless”) they also need to be struck at the same time. A plectrum will not do this, but the piano’s hammer will. There are times to use a plectrum. Plucking individual strings to determine problems is useful. Many strings in the treble will have false beats. This is when a single string will sound with a beat. Plucking can be used to determine which string has a false beat.

There's one other place for plucking: In the piano factory or the rebuilder's shop, it's used sometimes to do a rough tuning and get tension on the strings before the action is available.
It's called "chip tuning" because they use the chips of wood that are always available in such places.

DoelKees

Originally Posted By: JohnSprung

There's one other place for plucking: In the piano factory or the rebuilder's shop, it's used sometimes to do a rough tuning and get tension on the strings before the action is available.
It's called "chip tuning" because they use the chips of wood that are always available in such places.

I have a video of Bill Bremmer tuning unisons, where he plucks the strings in the high treble.
It should be here but it is not.
Kees

BDB

I pluck strings sometimes to orient myself and find out if an individual string is sharp or flat.

rxd
Plucking Blüthner aliquots comes to mind although the new redesigned system can be heard quite clearly in normal playing once they're somewhere close to pitch and plucking becomes unnecesslary.
Maybe plucking the strings of the top 2-3 notes if they are unusually weak but only to get them close. Then fine tune normally.
No. The acurate tuning we are promoting requires playing the note involved from the keyboard.
At least Max is using a plectrum and, as far as I can see, not touching the strings with his fingers as many uninformed tuners do.

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

The commercial name is a T-bar socket wrench:
I applaud you for having a tapered socket made for yours.
One thing that we can agree on is that we would like to see the pianos that you are tuning, be tuned much better.

Dear UnrightTooner, from now on, if you and all our masters forum allowed me to your advice to call my hammer
"maxim_tuner's T-bar socket wrench".
What concerns my method of tuning the vertical piano, I'm not saying all do it now. I believe in special cases, T-hammers wrench can also use it. My main idea is that there can be no fundamental difference in setting up the usual "classical" method 8 sided hammer and T shaped key. Tuners can do the operation T-hammers more difficult and do not effectively. However, the result can not vary or I'm wrong? If I have an opportunity, I will be create the full video of its own method about. Then you will be substantively and fundamentally criticize this method. Sincerely,Maximillyan

UnrightTooner

Max:
Do you understand flagpoling?
No need to post another video. There is enough to criticize in the ones you have already posted.
Hopefully you will soon have a typical tuning hammer and can experience the difference.
Let me ask again: Can you give some examples of what you have learned from this Forum?

rxd

Max,
I am amazed at your grasp of the English language in just the 4 months that you have been posting. No computer translator could get the subtleties of our language as you have started to do. With this speed of learning, adding our techniques to your own should be easy for you.
I thank you for all your posts, you have certainly woken things up around here and addressed some subjects that have been taboo.
In answer to your question/statement, I think that you are right in that there is no fundamental difference between your tool and ours.
I accept your suggestion of saying T-bar hammer as opposed to T-hammer as a differenciation between the two tools.
What concerns us is its use.
In order to tell the differences in its use, we would encourage you to make clean unisons as demonstrated in the Japanese video and then see how long those unisons stay clean, (still)(not wavering) even through heavy playing. This is how we assess (judge) this aspect of a good tuning from a bad one.
I am not judging your style of unison, that is between you and your customers, but practice this stillness. The act of achieving that stillness is also good for the mind.
I am not telling you that you are wrong, if any of us made a video of our own tuning technique we might just be more than a little bit embarrased. Sometimes, what is apparent in a video does not necessarily show what is being felt in the tuners hands.
With what you have shown us so far, we (I) don't find it possible to assess the differences that you tell us may not be there.
I refer you back to 'unright tuner' where he asks you to tell us what you have learned so far and of your understanding of 'flagpoling'.

rxd

I just finished a tour of the 60 or so practice pianos in my care.
I only found one unison worth getting my tools out for and a bit of long steel drift here and there.
I only mention this because the heat has been switched on a few days ago and I was dreading this morning and considering that I took the risk of using nothing but a T-hammer for the corrections an my last go-round.
(I did the concert instuments yesterday, so they don't count).
Oh, and I found myself saying 'Darling' and 'sweetheart' to them as they were behaving so well.
Does anybody else talk to their pianos so lovingly?
I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: rxd

With what you have shown us so far, we (I) don't find it possible to assess the differences that you tell us may not be there.
I refer you back to 'unright tuner' where he asks you to tell us what you have learned so far and of your understanding of 'flagpoling'.

Dear rXd, I have carefully reads and analyze your words. These are the words Master and I feel in them the support and care. I am always ready for dialogue. I am already absorb correct critic in my address. My path is the path of trial and error. Fate compels to try out new techniques and equipment to achieve the goal. I agree with you that any equipment even made it homemade, it is to be used . As I said before my method is it due to lack of funds for the purchase and operation of the factory hammer. My clients are asked to provide a service and I can not refuse them.
'flagpoled' I do not really understand what it is? If you can please explain.
I learn all that techs of piano writes . I don't want to specify that already received some advice. I would not want someone to hurt my neglect of the techs our forum. If I understand correctly what is written about my method of tuning a piano's tech, it should be noted, I rotate pin in a clockwise direction, and not wildebeest it . Sincerely, maxim_tuner (bodger frome KZ)

BDB

When you turn a tuning pin, all the force should be rotating it. It should not bend it forward or backward or the side. Bending it that way is what they are calling "flagpoling," because it bends like a flagpole in the wind.

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: BDB

Bending it that way is what they are calling "flagpoling," because it bends like a flagpole in the wind.

Dear BDB , If I understand you correctly, then the concept to my method of rotation of pin is not suitable (means "flagpoling". I have need tuning very old upright piano. Handle my T-bar allows you to rotate the two hands simultaneously. Application of force evenly throughout the pin. Thus I care about the pin and pinblock. I keep care about tight contact (pin - wood hole - pinblock)

rxd

Max. (Bodger from Kz)
BDB gave a good description of flagpoling.
I like your term 'wildebeest' the pin. It brings to my imagination exactly what we mean. The English (Uk) words wrestplank (pinblock) and wrestpin (tuning pin) come from the same root as the word wrestle, a style of fighting. To wildebeest the pins might just enter the language of technicians over all the world.
The general opinion from your video is that it looks to us that you wildebeest the pin more than we would be comfortable with. Your first step, if you wish to add our techniques to your own, is to simply turn (rotate) the pin with no other motion up or down or sideways (on an upright).
This takes some skill and strength with the tool you are using. if you have the T bar in a central position like our T hammer, as Jeff suggested, it would help acheive our goal.
I have spent the last week using my T hammer as much as I can so it is not impossible except for the very tightest tuning pins. I have previous experience with a T hammer so that helps. A tuning lever would take less strength but it is not as easy as with a T hammer or T bar hammer to feel the exact ammount of unintentional flagpoling.
May I repeat?, we would like to hear some still unisons played from the keyboard of the piano This is the simplest way to check the effectiveness of the technique that you are using.
The object is to tune a piano to a very fine degree and for it to stay in tune at that fine degree as long as possible.

Mark R.

Max,
1) To explain the term "flagpoling"
Look at your video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gQ-ZInLsF4
You are bending the tuning pin down at 1:03 - 1:06. When you release the T-bar at 1:07, you can see the pin return upwards.
At 1:13 you bend the pin down, at 1:15 it returns upwards.
At 1:42 you bend the pin down, at 1:45 it returns upwards.
Then, at 1:47 you bend the pin up, at 1:49 it returns downwards.
Again 1:57 (bend up), 1:58 (returns down), 2:01 (bend up), 2:02 (bend down).
2) To explain "beatless" (still, clean, in tune)
At 2:35 one can hear that the A4 is still not tuned. The note has a "eeeeaaaaaoooouuuu" sound. This is a phase change. The three strings are not tuned beatless.
At 3:43, the F# is not beatless.
At 4:16 (and 6:28), the A4 is still not beatless.
At 5:09, the D5 is still not quite beatless.
At 6:32, the G4 is not beatless.
At 6:43, the C4 is beating quite strongly strongly.
3) To explain why it is necessary to play the note with the piano's hammer
Unright Tooner explained this well:
Quote:For both strings to sound in phase (sound "beatless”) they also need to be struck at the same time. A plectrum will not do this, but the piano’s hammer will.

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: Mark R.

At 5:09, the D5 is still not quite beatless.

THANK Mark,You made the timing of my videos. Mark's Timing is a tutorial for young novice tuner. I am your debtor. Thanks again

Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd

I like your term 'wildebeest' the pin. To wildebeest the pins might just enter the language of technicians over all the world.
May I repeat?, we would like to hear some still unisons played from the keyboard of the piano This is the simplest way to check the effectiveness of the technique that you are using.

My dear rxd,From now on, throughout the international practice of piano technicians only 'wildebeest'
Video of my art tuning path with T-bar I shall promise to show, but later. I do not have a digital camera now
maxim_tuner_bodger_from_KZ

DoelKees

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

For both strings to sound in phase (sound "beatless”) they also need to be struck at the same time.

Why? If they are out of phase but at the same frequency there will be no beats.
Kees

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: DoelKees

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

they also need to be struck at the same time.

Why? If they are out of phase but at the same frequency there will be no beats.Kees

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